Stuart Secker: Adventures and Lessons From International Ultra Running

Announcer: 0:00

Discover all inspiring stories from runners who've been right where you are. This is the Choose to Endure Ultra Running Podcast with your host - he's English, not Australian - Richard Gleave.

Richard: 0:19

Hello stamina seekers. This is the Choose to Endure podcast dedicated to the back of the pack ultra runners who are redefining possible, one epic journey at a time. Today, I am super pleased to be joined by Mr Stuart Secker. Stuart lives just outside of London in England, and started running 13 years ago when some office banter got out of hand and he entered and finished his first marathon. His first ultra was 100K in 2014. He ran his first 100 mile in 2015, where he finished 25 minutes inside the cutoff, hated it and immediately signed up for the next one, as you do. He has now finished 16 races of 100 miles or more, 8 in the UK and 8 in the US and most recently completed the Kansas Rails to Trails extravaganza. He also has 17 DNFs at 100 miles plus and has finished as high as third and as low as third from last, both in the same year. So stick with us as we explore the differences in race organization, culture, personal experience and the unique challenges of racing internationally. Stuart, my friend, welcome to the podcast. It's always nice to hear a friendly accent and I think I would have to turn in my UK card if I didn't at least ask you how the weather was over in your part of the world right now. How's it going, sir?

Stuart: 1:54

Oh hey, richard, Good to talk to you again. Yeah, so today, today's kind of, by UK standards, pretty chilly, so it's been zero or, as most of your listeners would say, kind of low 30s and yeah, kind of went for a run earlier, kind of just about get away with the shorts. But yeah, it's a cool, crisp day and yeah, that's what it's like round here Brilliant.

Richard: 2:26

Yeah. So I wanted to just touch on your start into ultra running before we get into any of your recent stuff. So you know your bio said you went from marathons. Is that right straight to a 100K. There was no in between, no 50K or 50 mile. Usually. You know there's that progression that people tend to go through.

Stuart: 2:46

Yeah, that would have been sensible, wouldn't it? Yeah for sure. So how?

Announcer: 2:51

did you make that leap?

Richard: 2:53

How did you mentally go? You know what? I've just done a few marathons. I'm going to jump into a 100K.

Stuart: 2:58

Yeah, I was raising money for charity at the time and I was just trying to, I was just trying to do something that I thought people might kind of think that's stupid, kind of I'll give him some money if he does it. And, and you know, having done a, having done a couple of marathons, I, you know, I found I found a nice looking invent in the UK. It was it was billed more as a walk than a run and kind of, in truth, it took me 26 hours or something to finish. So basically there was an awful lot of walking there, like 11,000 foot climbing. It was a completely a completely unmarked course, like not only was it not marked, there wasn't, there wasn't even an official route.

Richard: 3:39

Right, there's not even an official route, and this is your. This is your first ultra, or first 100K. Yeah, I was in feet with no official official route.

Stuart: 3:49

Yeah, this is organized. This race is organized by the Boy Scouts, right? So they kind of. They absolutely have, you know kind of safety front of mind. As soon as it gets dark, you have to group up with three other, three other runners or hikers and stick together through the night and if they see you kind of detached from your group they'll DNF the whole group, right? Oh, my goodness Auto auto DQ for all four of you, so kind of, you know, so it was. It was a kind of weird kind of sort of sort of sort of thing. But yeah, kind of finish that and then for OK, right, ok, well, that's some, you know, kind of let's, let's, let's transition from kilometers to miles and I thought you know kind of like 100K how much harder can 100 miles be? So kind of as I start my 100 mile race next year and I'm I'm jogging along and there's a couple of guys chatting next to me and they're laughing about how kind of someone they were talking to thought that 100K was not that different from 100 miles.

Richard: 4:51

Yeah, I mean, it's just one letter difference, right?

Stuart: 4:54

And I just thought I mean they weren't even talking about me, they were talking about someone else. I was just like, oh dear, probably I'm in the wrong part of the field If these guys are so experienced that they know that this is a bad you know kind of like mistake to make. So I just dropped back a bit. Yeah, that was.

Richard: 5:09

That was a tough finish, but you did finish and that's quite impressive, to be honest 11000 feet, 100K first ultra.

Announcer: 5:17

Yeah.

Richard: 5:18

I was quite impressed. Yeah, I read that on your mind. I was like really Like, wow, no progression there, just straight in. I love that. I think that's really ballsy. I like it. So that's your one finish. It also said you've got eight 100 milers in the UK, eight in the US. So I'm curious for those folks listening you tell us a little bit about the US races that you've done Any that you maybe liked a lot or didn't care for. And then I want to get into 2018, which seems like a pretty banner year for you. As I scouted your ultra, sign up here and so we'll get into that in a moment. But but yeah, so what? Are the best races have you done?

Stuart: 6:00

Yeah, so kind of like you say kind of. So. First one was Western states and I think for a lot of overseas run the first one was Western states.

Richard: 6:08

The first US race.

Stuart: 6:09

Wow, ok, you know, and I think for the that's probably going to be quite commonplace for a lot of international runners, you know kind of, you know they come. They come to the US because they've got a ticket into Western states. And for me it was just the beginning of a love affair really with doing trail races in the US, where there's just you know kind of so much more wilderness, you know scenery that you'd never find anywhere in the UK and and that that's you know kind of. So I think, like I say kind of, I think Western states is probably the gateway drug for US trail races for a lot of international runners. So yeah, so kind of, like you say, I did more of 240. Come back to that grindstone in Virginia the next year. And then then kind of like COVID obviously kind of put a bit of a kibosh on on things for a for a bit. You know kind of couldn't. You know races were canceled but couldn't travel to the US anyway. And then and then my next finish was in the US, was was Moggoll on Monster, which is like 90 miles northeast of Phoenix. So that's, pretty awesome actually Then Cowboy, where you and I both, but both ran together of course, the Cowboy 200. Yes, Love, Run, Lovet t, which is like is just maybe kind of a couple of hours west of Little Rock in Arkansas, the New Jersey Devil, which is a race it was. It was its first year and they may never get to run it again. Actually, oh dear, yeah, kind of. I think there's another bit of a theme here in terms of like you know the kind of like the state parks departments and similar, you know kind of just ratcheting up the kind of the expectations and testing. And then and then the kind of the eighth US one was the Kansas Rails Trails extravaganza, which was last month, October. Yeah, so before we get into that one.

Richard: 8:18

I really want to touch on your Western States and Moab, both in 2018. Yeah, with a lottery, did you? Did you get lottery for both of those? I don't know if there's a lottery at that time.

Stuart: 8:31

Yeah, so Western States was a lottery, yeah, and I was one of those guys that everyone hates because I got in with one ticket, you know, and I kind of like I mean, I kind of like I even I even just like kind of wasn't even paying any attention to the lottery because I like my odds were like I don't know kind of 1% or something, yeah, but but, but I got in and say it kind of started to love a fan. I was like, well, what else is there? And I, I started looking around and at that time, moa, the Moab 240, was maybe it was his second year of running in 2018. And so it wasn't selling out like it does now. And so, like six weeks before the race, I just, I, just I just put in for it. Yeah, and my, as soon as when I told my coach I'd done this, he just went silent on me for like a couple of days. He just couldn't believe it. I'm something quite so stupid. Yeah, like what?

Richard: 9:22

are you doing yeah?

Stuart: 9:29

So so that that was. That was like a real adventure. If I think about the things that I really like doing about these races, it's not the running Actually, I'm not that keen on running but it's the people, it's the places, it's the sense of adventure and exploration. I find that doing these super long distances it really enables you to connect with all of those things. I've made some lifelong friends out of Moab, for sure.

Richard: 10:07

Yeah, that's a pretty good intro into racing in the US. You've got Western states of Moab in the same year. No wonder you keep coming back. Yeah, so then your most recent race was the extravaganza the Rails to Trails extravaganza in Kansas. So yeah, how did that one go and how did that one come out? So it seems like you're spread around, right, you haven't gone to one particular area of the US. You're very agnostic. You're like, hey, I'll have to go anywhere, explore.

Stuart: 10:38

Absolutely. I mean kind of, all eight of my races have been in different states and it's not like I'm trying to collect all 50, right, but it is just a way of getting around different parts of the country and it's such a kind of like you and all your listeners, such a diverse country kind of like culturally, geographically, the kind of racing Kansas. Well, I was signed up. I actually was never going to do it. I was signed up for a race called the KT 225, which is essentially the width of Missouri on the KT trail, and then that was cancelled by the Missouri Department of Natural Resources with a week's notice. Yeah, yeah, I mean kind of. I mean obviously really tough for the RDS, casey and Chase Hammond. They put their life, soul kind of life savings, huge amounts of time into that race and to have it have it Canada, a week's notice is like really tough on them. But I trained for it, I was in pretty good shape, I'd taken the time off work, so I'm like, right, well, what else is out there?

Richard: 11:52

Yeah.

Stuart: 11:54

And a couple of great resources. Don't know if you've come across them. There's a website called runhundredscom which, as the name suggests, kind of lists all the American and Canadian races of a certain distance. And then the other thing is the kind of the event search facility on Ultra Signup, and between those two I kind of came across a handful, three, four races that I could do. This one, this one still had places, looked pretty appealing. Never been to Kansas City before, never been to Kansas, so kind of went for it and the race was just, I mean, like kind of I start on the start line, kind of like with you know kind of every race, absolutely full of confidence but without any real basis for that confidence. And this time it just really paid off. You know, I moved into, I moved into to be the first place guy, I was fourth overall at around about mile 35. And I basically stayed in that position right through kind of mile 70 or something.

Richard: 13:08

Was that your mindset at the gun? Like, hey, I'm going to go, I'm going to go, I feel pretty good, I'm going to go relatively quick here. You're just like I'm just going and I found myself in first through no real effort on my part you know what I mean. Like, were you going into wanting to do that or no, not at all.

Stuart: 13:27

I'm just going to actually, for the first time, I didn't, you know kind of the only thing I had on my phone display, sorry, on my watch display, was the time of day. I kind of like normally I, you know, I kind of I fill that screen on my Garmin with you know kind of lap pace, lap distance, distance to the next aid station you know, kind of you know, kind of every, every stat imaginable, right, and all I thought for this one I'm just going to run to feel and see, see what happens. And so the only thing, the only thing I had, was time of day, and that was just to keep me, keep me focused on eating and drinking, you know. So, because I knew that kind of I was going to try and get through a bottle every hour. It's going to try and get through, you know, kind of a gel or a bar every every hour, and and so that was the only thing, that's. The only reason I had time of day on my watch was just to just to keep an eye on the kind of the fueling, yeah. And so when, when I kind of came to an aid station, they said you're the first guy, I'm like what, this makes no sense at all. I had no idea, kind of like how many people were ahead of me or not.

Richard: 14:38

Right, and how many people were in this race, like how many? There's not many, not many.

Stuart: 14:44

It's like maybe, maybe 35. They run a. They run a kind of a hundred mile, a 50 mile, a 50 K, a marathon and a half marathon all on the same course, gotcha, it's, and it's an hour and back. So for the, so for the hundred miles, we do 50 miles out and then turn around and then the and then the shorter distances. They just don't go as far. Before turning around and coming back to the, coming back to the start line, anyway, I mean I kind of the weather turned pretty bad. I got, you know, there were thunderstorms through the night. I got pretty cold. I stopped eating so kind of every age station I got to I was just, I was mainlining ramen and broth, just to, just to, just to get.

Announcer: 15:26

Yeah, I mean the kind of staple diet of the opera runner.

Richard: 15:28

Right yeah, so good.

Stuart: 15:30

So good and I mean I knocked an hour 40 off my PB finished in 2112. That's incredible, well done and finished, finished, third, which was, yeah, I mean, astonishing for me. So you know, kind of kind of like, you know I, I, I feel like I need to kind of you know there's some lessons to learn out of there, right? So kind of you know, kind of like, just cause you've got gloves and mitts on, you can find a way of eating is part of it, but another part of it is, you know, sometimes you can just trust yourself to. You know, to kind of to kind of you know, trust your training. You know kind of, if it's hurting you, probably it's hurting the other guys too. So don't, don't, don't worry about that too much. You know your brain calls on you to quit way before your body is ready to do so. If you can, just, you know, kind of, keep reminding yourself of that. So there's some stuff not to repeat. There's some stuff I definitely want to repeat.

Richard: 16:31

Brilliant, yeah. When you say it got cold, are we talking cowboy cold here or are we talking like well, because my cold has changed completely since that race, like you know?

Stuart: 16:41

no no, so my water bottles weren't freezing right.

Richard: 16:44

Yeah, that's how I measure cold now on a race, Like if a bottle froze yet or not, then that so yeah.

Stuart: 16:51

But it was almost the worst sort of cold. It was wet, cold, right, so it was so. So in Fahrenheit it was maybe down to 35, right, probably didn't get any colder than that. But when you're kind of, when you've got sleet coming down, when you've got rain, it's a thunderstorm, you know you're drenched to the bone then then the kind of basically you run or you die, right, I mean you are at severe risk of hypothermia if you don't keep, if you don't keep moving.

Richard: 17:22

Yeah, and that's. That's why part of the reason I had to stop at Lakeland 100, because it had hammered it down and was howling wind and I had the same problem in that. I wasn't moving fast enough and I was getting cold really quick, up up at some elevation, yeah. But yeah, going over the top of those hills and coming down again, you got to, you got to get warm. So, yeah, I totally, totally understand that. So, so, yeah, so you finished. Third male, yeah. Third male yeah.

Stuart: 17:54

Fantastic, obviously kind of. I'm super delighted for women, but also for myself, that women are now kind of regarded as being in a separate race right Rather than.

Richard: 18:03

Yeah, so so you've done Racing in the US. Do you have a favorite of all the races that you've done, aside from Western states? Maybe Moab, I guess.

Stuart: 18:14

So yeah, so kind of. I'd say so kind of, yeah, I mean Western. It's hard to look past Western states for the beauty in the history. Moab was a great adventure. Moggion was probably the most surprising, right, so kind of. I don't know if you've been to that part of Arizona, but you know I flew into Phoenix and it was everything I expected, right, it was like it was, you know, kind of a hundred degrees. It was absolutely baking hot. There was kind of everywhere you looked it was like either desert or cactus, right, yeah, and. And then you, but you drive an hour and a half out of Northeast, out of our Phoenix. You end up in them in a kind of a pine forest. You're at 5,000 feet and and there's a great, you know kind of two half thousand foot escarpment there. The Moggion basically takes you up and down half a dozen times. It's a. I mean it's a, it's a hard rock qualifier for a reason right, yeah. What you know, kind of I so I wasn't expecting that. And then round about kind of 25 miles in like the heavens just opened and we had a. We had a kind of a thunderstorm where the flash to bang time was like zero is like that right, so you're right on top of you, yeah right on top of you and at that very moment, in the right Hailstone, started coming down and kind of, we're talking about I mean there weren't golf balls, but they're, you know, they were, they were, they were pretty big right. You know, they're definitely hurt. They hurt when they hit you. And there's some guy, you know, and right at that point is kind of is a was an exposed kind of like descent down the escarpment, kind of like on the edge of this rock, and there's some guys. I'm running with her Just like, oh, we need to hide behind these trees. I'm like dude, no way, yeah, I'm, I'm just getting off this, I'm just getting off this hill as quick as I can. And and, sure enough, when you got to the bottom it was a complete different climate. It's like why you guys are wet. You know, kind of it was, it was incredible, so it was. I mean, that was, that was just an incredibly surprising experience. So I try and take something great out of them. You know, kind of out of out of all the races, even if it's, even if it's just a teeny, tiny thing, you know yeah, yeah, and so so you?

Richard: 20:35

I mean, you've done these races in the US. You've obviously done a bunch over in the UK as well, mm-hmm, did you? You know? Do you find that the communities are the same on on both side, the people you talk to and you know the race support and an organization? Do you? Do you find it's similar, no matter where you go, or other differences that you've seen for how we race in the US? Yeah, this is this is you know what you're used to over in the UK, or at least? the races you've done in the UK.

Stuart: 21:03

Yeah, I mean it's interesting to get your take on this as well. I mean, I think that kind of like the communities are really quite similar. You know, you've got all walks of life Doing these races at the. The last race I did in the UK, my running buddies for the last 50 miles was there was two. One was a lady, one was a lady who's a Welsh dairy farmer and the other was a software engineer, and actually I love that. My running buddies one was a For the for the early miles, one was a was a produce farmer from Missouri and the other was a was a physicist from from the Los Alamos National Laboratory Great, you know. And so you just got these kind of incredible spectrum of Kind of of people kind of like, and you know there's always you know kind of stuff to learn and things people to chat to and things to find out About, stuff that you've otherwise got no you know kind of way of knowing. So I think the communities are really quite that's my take anyways kind of communities quite similar, but the race organization and support is kind of pretty different actually. Yes, I have. How would?

Richard: 22:09

you? How would you categorize different? Because I know I've got, I've got my take. Certainly for me, the two things right out the gate, the, the aid station, food is very different, I have found in the. UK. Yeah, so what you would find over here, I feel like there's a lot more. There's a lot different choice. What's the word? I'm looking for there's, you know, there's. There's. There's very specific foods in the US that you would never, sorry, in the UK, that you would never find in the US, and I'm thinking like sausage rolls or Many pasties stuff that I'm like, oh yeah, I gotta have this. This is great. I mean, I'm gonna eat this all day long and you know a little cherry bake wells and stuff. And then I get back over here. I'm like where is this stuff? You tend to get a lot more sweet and salty here, a lot more of the chips and the pretzels and the M&Ms seem to be pretty staple over here.

Stuart: 23:04

But I think, not so much in the UK, yeah and I mean is there a single race in the US that doesn't serve cheese quesadillas at some point?

Richard: 23:12

right, yeah, I don't know where that started, but you know had some some kind of money in that, because they would be winning for sure in. Yeah, cheese quesadillas.

Stuart: 23:23

Yeah, for sure I mean, and certainly it's somewhere like Moab, right, you know, you kind of like you. Kind of like you, just you kind of trot into an aid station and they just like ask you how many burgers you'd like, right.

Richard: 23:35

Yeah.

Stuart: 23:37

Yeah, I've never been offered a burger a race in the UK like ever really, I thought that was just me.

Richard: 23:47

Because yeah, I mean even yeah when we did cowboy, you rolled into a lot of their aid stations and it was, you know, there was definitely burgers there, that I had, cheese quesadillas, of course.

Announcer: 23:57

And I think later on.

Richard: 23:58

There were like these big German brats I mean, yeah, the last day, and I was like man, I gotta have, like I gotta have handfuls of these things.

Announcer: 24:06

You know the savory stuff.

Richard: 24:08

I like the savory stuff and I think that's what you know. My experience of UK racing is there is more savory items than I think there are, Just sort of the sweet and salty stuff.

Stuart: 24:18

But yeah, I mean other other things. I mean, you know, kind of I think, almost I think, probably every US race as the course is marked, sometimes marked incredibly well as well, whereas there are only a small handful of races in the UK that mark the course.

Richard: 24:42

So I mean I would, yeah. So looking back over there, I think there's a lot more sort of marked pathways in the UK as well. I mean, I know I've done a couple of races where you're following a distinctly marked national public trail and they use the trail which I think just generally speaking. That's a very different setup to the US. There's some of that, but generally speaking there aren't many trails that tootle across people's public land for instance.

Stuart: 25:12

So yeah, marked trails, that would be a good one, yeah, and then the other thing is we touched on this a bit when we were chatting before, but kind of crewing and pacing are much less common in the UK. Yeah, I actually reached out to.

Richard: 25:25

so when I did the Beyond Marathon race, the Peak District 100 over there, I actually reached out to the RD Richard there and I asked him, before I come, like, is it okay if I've got family that live really close, like on the course pretty much? Is it okay if they come pace me or do whatever? And so he was just very confused as to the concept of pacing and I had to explain like this is somebody who runs with you for security and, you know, for a chat, and obviously they don't carry any of your stuff, as you would see here. But yeah, I had to explain the concept of pacing outside and I asked if it was okay if pacing was allowed and he interpreted that to be you know, well, yeah, you can choose whatever time you like to try to run between you know. So I said no, no, what I mean is, can I have a pacer? And then so we had to have this conversation about pacing, I think Richard may have been yanking your chain a bit Maybe. But generally speaking, I don't know that. I have done a race in the UK where people have had paces as you would find them.

Stuart: 26:29

Yeah, so there are. You know. So Centurion have about 10 or so races in the UK and everything from 50k through 100 mile. Actually, my next race is their first 200, which is in two weeks time. But yes, and they generally, I mean not on all races but all their 100 milers. I think they permit a pacer for the last 50. Okay, great, so, so, so, because but then the, the RD, there, he, he came into kind of like organizing UK races off the back of himself, running a whole bunch of us once they he's run like Vermont and you know Old Dominion and Western States and kind of like a whole bunch of these you know big old US races. So he, he was the first guy to introduce buckles to to kind of to races in the UK.

Richard: 27:23

Yes, that always. That always seemed a little odd to me, but I love it. I mean, I think that it's wonderful that it's it's crossed over and but yes, trying to explain the buckle to people in the UK like why do I get a buckle for 100. That's just, that's just how it's done. Yeah, but I'm glad it carried over for sure.

Stuart: 27:39

So yeah, so those are, say, the main, the kind of the, you know the main differences.

Richard: 27:44

So how about? So I know when I race over there and so so I do US and go to the UK and do racing. You're in the UK, you come to the US and racing. We're both jetting, jet setting across the across the Atlantic there. So how do you deal with the logistical challenges of participating in the international race scene, as well as the jet lag, because I know I don't have trouble with it, but I have to be really careful on the timing of arrivals and scheduling where I'm going and one or so? Do you have any any miracle cure for the jet lag or any other administrative logistical advice?

Stuart: 28:24

Yes, I mean, I think it makes a huge difference. Traveling west, which is not very helpful for you, obviously, I do think it's. I don't think it. Whenever I've flown west, whether it's for running or anything else, I've always been completely fine the next day, whereas traveling east again, kind of whether it's on holiday or whether it's kind of coming back from the races in the US, like I'm always, I'm always a zombie for kind of 48 hours, so so kind of like not very helpful to it. But I do think that kind of traveling west is is a lot, lot easier than than going the other way. I always try and land a good 36 hours before the race and that partly gives me a bit of kind of like bandwidth in case, you know, kind of a connect. You know I miss a connection or you know, because obviously the last thing you want to do is kind of put all that money into, into coming over and then you know you kind of like you miss a connection and then you kind of like you basically miss your race, right. So so kind of I always try and arrive like for a for a race that's on a Saturday, or fly out on Thursday, try and land Thursday evening. So that gives me a bit of bandwidth but but it also allows me to kind of to then explore the place that I've gone to, which is, like for me, a big part of why I'm doing this. So you know, kind of with that breadth of races, as you can probably tell, you know kind of a you know before cowboy, for example, I spent you know kind of the drive over. I kind of spent kind of two, three hours in Badlands National Park, which is an amazing place to go to. By the way, kind of like and like a good reason to do the cowboy is to fly into Rapid City and then drive over to Valentine through through Badlands. See what a great place it is. You know I've spent kind of time in in Hot Springs, arkansas, kind of feet downtown Phoenix, you know kind of it's just so many. You know kind of Kansas City is actually really quite an interesting place to go. Like what on earth it's doing with the kind of US National World War One Memorial Museum, but I have no idea why that's in Kansas City. Super happy that it was because I spent like a really fascinating kind of two, three hours kind of going around going around that museum so kind of. So that's, that's the thing for me is always give myself in logistical headroom, but I also kind of try, and, you know, use that time to kind of to, kind of to look around places and just see some, see some interesting bits, yeah for sure.

Richard: 30:54

And do you get into it's taken me a while to figure these kinds of things out but just the challenge of packing for a race and international race, where you know you've got to bring all of your most of, if not all of your kind of race specific items. And then you know, it occurred to me one time. I was always flying to the UK and my bags went somewhere else that not for a race, thankfully, but it occurred to me at that point, if I'd have put everything I needed for the race in one bag, I'd be host at this point. So do you have? How do you pack, like, do you, do you kind of wear what you're going to wear so you at least know you have the clothes for the race, or do you just wing it and you know?

Stuart: 31:38

so. So I've gone out and bought the biggest carry on that I can, that I can get through through airport on to the, on to the aircraft and in there I will have everything that I absolutely need. So you know kind of I'll have. You know I'll be probably be wearing the shoes that I'll be running in. I'll be wearing those, but like kind of my, my kind of my race fest, my clothing, all the electronics, obviously they all have to go kind of in your carry on anyway. Yes, you know so kind of the main, the main things that I don't have in that carry on are my, are my drop bags. You know kind of in. You know kind of which is another big difference actually between UK and US races, right, you know kind of drop bags. Way, you know kind of way more drop bags at US race, like kind of it can even do your head in how many drop bags you have at US race. But so kind of. So kind of like my food and stuff like that. You know, if I've got gels obviously they're liquids you know kind of I'm not going to kind of stick those in a three by three, kind of like kind of plastic baggy, so kind of and if you know, kind of it's never happened. But if that kind of, if that bag gets lost somewhere in the over the Atlantic, then I can. I can race with what I've got right. I'll have to have a different strategy. I might have to go to Walmart and pick up some cookies and stuff, but kind of I'll be fine.

Richard: 32:59

Yeah, yeah, I always have. I always have a bit of a heart flutter when, when I'm packing my tailwind, which I run with quite a bit, and you know I like to make the little baggies with the proper amounts of scoop of the tailwinds, it's easy just to. I can stash them in my pack, with them out and put them in a bottle, right. But but when you, when you're packing, you know 20 little baggies of white powder in your, it always wonder. I always wonder if somebody ever looked at that one, an X-ray machine, and thought what is this, you know? And so I always get a bit of a flutter when I'm doing that and that's kind of fun.

Stuart: 33:36

I mean, I'm no expert on this, but I think the kind of genuine drug dealers are a little bit more yeah you know, kind of discreet In a running vest and putting it at the top of their baggage. No, no, they're secreting it somewhere else. Wonderful.

Richard: 33:56

Yeah, the jet lag for me is another interesting one, because I've gone. I really struggle going, going over to the UK and running. From a jet lag perspective, I'm always super, super tired. That that first day for sure, and then you just about start to get around to it. So I think I'm with you. I've got to a point where I try to do at least 48 hours between landing and racing, probably a little bit more if there's any amounts of travel involved. And you know, for US people, yep, there is some travel in the UK. You do have to, you do have to go places. It's not all London.

Stuart: 34:32

Yeah, I mean the UK is just not very big, right, so kind of like, you know, if you land at Heathrow and you drive for four hours you're going to be you know, kind of that's going to take you to pretty much anywhere in the country, right, yes, the other thing, of course, is we, you know we have, we have trains, that kind of the travel faster than cars, which will be a novel experience to any American, and so kind of actually is a legitimate kind of option for people who want to go a bit further field in London for races, to kind of land at London, get a train to, you know, to Manchester or Newcastle or to Bristol or wherever the, wherever the race is near, and just pick a higher car there.

Richard: 35:15

Yeah, it's a good strategy, for sure, I know so. And the other thing that it's always you know from the logistical challenge something to think about, and so to a degree I guess you have it here too. But when you're traveling for a race and you're there for a while, and you're there beforehand and you may be there afterwards, there's like a section of clothing and overnight stuff that you want to have. That's not race related. Like, what are you going to do with that stuff while you're racing? I know I can take a drop bag and put it on the course, but like, what am I going to do with my small suitcase while I'm not racing, unless you have a somewhere to stay for the entire week or whatever, like the. I don't know, it's just. I think it's logistically and administratively. Doing all this traveling To some degree within the US, but definitely internationally, always throws extra wrenches in it. For me it's. It's the. Yeah.

Stuart: 36:05

It's. This is also partly where you can lean on the community, right. So you know so kind of I was when I, when I did Western states, I actually I was really lucky. I had a kind of a guy from the Bay Area who picked me up at SFO and drove us off there. But there was a guy there with his wife who his wife doesn't drive, and he'd basically gotten a Kind of a taxi from from Reno to the start line and his wife was faced with like bus journeys and taxis and whatever to get to the finish. But it was easy because I chatted to my Pacer guy and he chatted to one of his friends and between us we, you know kind of between them they were able to find someone to give Give Andy's wife a lift to the finish line via some of the aid stations where she could see him run through. So really like for people who are leaning into that you know, thinking yeah, I'd like to do a race in the UK or kind of some other country, right, and it's like, yeah, but what about? Well, the answer is just send the face, send the kind of the RDM message on on Facebook and say kind of, you know? So you know, can you help with this? Or do you know someone who might be able to and like the community will love to? I've always been so welcome at the at the US. I mean they, they kind of. What on earth is this Brit doing? Kind of like flying to, kind of to Arkansas, to?

Richard: 37:24

kind of what are you doing here? Why, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I have found to a lot of those. You know a lot of races have the Facebook pages, like you're talking about, like the community. You can always hit up those pages and ask, yeah, ask for help, or I'm I get in at this point, or what's the best airport to fly into, or is anybody leaving at this time, and or I need you know. So I found, definitely on on racing, that's a UK too. I mean, I did that when I ran Ring of Fire. I had help from people over on the Wales side of things, on on Island of Angleship there, doing the same thing. So I think that exists wherever. But, yeah, definitely lean, lean on the community for sure. Yeah, and before we leave the gear section, is there any gear that you have found essential for racing in the US Versus the UK or or otherwise? You know, is there any UK gear? Or you're like I, you got to have this when you race in the UK, and it's not necessarily always Needed in the US, and does the mandatory gear differ?

Stuart: 38:31

Mandatory gear is completely different. I mean, to be honest, my racing gear is pretty similar. It's much more kind of you know course, specific terrain, specific than it is, than it is to the, to the country, the. It's a cultural thing, that kind of. In the UK, like, every race will have a really extensive kitlist, I mean, and some can be really really extensive, whereas in the US the US is only really I've only really noticed in the last couple of years Races start to get Specific about actually we need you to have this or we need you to have that. You know, yeah, and and right now it's just it tends to be limited to like, you know, you have to carry a flash headlamp and you have to carry a half liter bottle. What's that announces, I'd know, like 18 ounces or something, or you know, kind of you know you have to, you have to have, you have to carry water and you have to have a headlamp. I or some. You know, you know or be it'll be, it'll be stuff like that. Whereas in the UK, like the list can be and the reality is that probably, like most, most people are kind of starting the race with the same stuff. It's just in one place it's mandatory, in the other place it's kind of sensible.

Richard: 39:40

Yeah, common sense gear really huh. Yeah, I know, I know when I go to the UK, right, it's gonna rain and it's gonna be windy as hell most of the time. I don't know, unless I'm lucky then. So to be fair, well, I don't know. I Deliberately make sure I have rain gear, full waterproof stuff, big puffy. I have them, one of the montane. So I'm buying gear in the UK because I'm like, if it's, if it's good enough for over there, I know it's gonna be damn good enough for you know for over here from a rain perspective. I'm buying my rain gear from the UK because, especially where I live in the UK, up near Manchester, it's it just rains permits, like Seattle is just it's gray, yeah, all the time. So I'm like, if it's okay here, then I know it's gonna be fine. I'm where I'm at, but, yeah, mandatory gear. I've always found, like you, that there's a really specific list and but even like when I did Peter's tricks over there, you had to have like a proper old-school compass and and map. So you know, you had to be able to navigate and I'm like, geez, you know, and then that showed up again at. Lakeland the same same kind of mandatory stuff, but I've never been Asked over here in the US for a, you know, an old-school compass. So yeah, I think there are differences. It's kind of like you say it's probably cultural, but but yeah, I do think there are differences for sure.

Stuart: 41:01

Yeah, I mean some of that will be because just you know, like a reflection, so so kind of Western states has got something like 21 aid stations In a hundred miles, so like you're never gonna be more than you know, kind of like 5k forwards or backwards from a you know from an aid station, and so that limits the amount of trouble you're ever gonna get yourself into. Yeah you know, whereas, whereas in the UK it would be typical for a hundred mile race to have no more than 10.

Richard: 41:31

Yeah, and so I was looking. What was your summer spine race that you were did fantastically well in. Congrats on that, by the way. Oh yeah, eight, eight, I think you were over. Yeah, that's like, what's that? 260 odd miles.

Stuart: 41:47

Yeah, yeah, two, seven, two, 70 miles. You know in it took me kind of 117 hours. The key list you know kind of is pretty extensive. You know you need a, you need a 20 liter pack for that those 117 hours. I reckon I slept for maybe 11 of those 117. That's everything from like a, like a proper bed in a youth hostel at one of the aid stations, through In a couple of tents a couple of times, right through to kind of like a you know kind of a gents bathroom floor in a. In a car park on Hadrian's wall.

Richard: 42:24

Oh well, at least you're on Hadrian's wall, but goodness me, Public toilet.

Stuart: 42:30

Yeah, but that toilet had a design floor right because there was a kind of like a movement sensor on the light and so every time I turned over the light came on.

Richard: 42:38

Oh, even worse. Goodness, you must have been super tired to get any sleep. Yeah, yeah, but even there I mean. So the reason I bring that up, and about the, the distance between aid stations, I think those are monstrous in that race, are they not? From what?

Stuart: 42:53

I was 45 45 miles on average between aid stations and the race I'm doing in two weeks time. That's got 50 miles between aid stations.

Richard: 43:03

So what's your, what's your strategy for that? Do you have a strategy or are you like us that's yeah, you know that's pretty extreme.

Stuart: 43:11

Yeah, so kind of Kind of so fluid, so. So you are allowed a crew on that race. Not that I'll have one because my wife is working, but, um, I've got, you know, kind of, there's a, there's a list available one of the one of the runners has done it there's a kind of like a Google Sheets list of every Everywhere on the course where you can get water or the you can. There's a shop where you can get food and, of course, if you can get water, you can put your tailwind in it or your morsel or whatever. So I'll be taking a bit of that, not too much, because it being it's going to be cold, right, it's going to be kind of 30s in in in Fahrenheit. So you know, you kind of just you're not going to drink that much, you're gonna want to drink that much, so you won't get much fuel that way. I've got these, um, these kind of these gel pouches which have got 300 grams of carbon each one. Oh right, so, so, so one of I reckon one of those will last me a good 12 hours and Then, and then I'll have like a bag of Harry bow and so, between between the drink, the haribo and the, and maybe some cookies and the and the gel. I should have enough food to them. And because it's a 200 mile race, you know You're not moving that fast. You know, if my average pace is 15 minute miles like I'll be in the top 10. Yeah and so you just you know you're burning less fuel, right yeah, that's what it boils down to.

Richard: 44:33

Fantastic, yeah. So other thoughts on international racing have you, have you come across any like weird, weird challenges or any other, any other oddities when racing internationally? So kind of the kind of the.

Stuart: 44:49

But I kind of it was on the Mocchi, on monster and I come into a station it's on the middle of the night and it's 28 to in the morning or something, and this guy, the aid station, says to me so would you like a sloppy Joe and I?

Richard: 45:04

said oh man yeah.

Stuart: 45:06

I said. I said I'm sorry, I don't speak American. What's the sloppy?

Richard: 45:09

Joe.

Stuart: 45:12

And he, he explained it to me and he said you must have something like that in England, right? I said maybe in Scotland, and Turns out he was a Scottish American and they didn't regard that as an amusing, but I mean, it went down. It went down for sure. So Snakes like kind of we don't have snakes in the UK, oh, so like yes at all. And then I'm running along in Louisiana, which is one of my DNS, was the with the Lou Gehru.

Richard: 45:45

That's they are. That's a race close, hit close to here. That's definitely a favorite from from this part of the world.

Stuart: 45:50

This guy kind of like on the trail in front of me holds his hand out to stop me and he's got in his other hand, he's got this long branch and he's kind of poking it at the trail. It's like, oh god, I don't want to know.

Richard: 46:03

What is?

Stuart: 46:03

he doing yeah, yeah, it's copper mouth, oh, like kind of I don't need this. I really don't need it, it's already a tough race, like Coppermouth snakes invading the.

Richard: 46:20

Yeah, so, and I know over here we've had hornets and and that we had a race cancelled in just in the north part of Texas. There was a hornets nest on the course but the nobody knew until the first runners started running over it and Disturbed the nest and then obviously these things came out and and yeah, and so a lot of runners got stung and and eventually they had to. They moved the course mid-race to go around this thing. But yeah, I just just weird stuff. And you know you're coming from the UK. I know when I go back to the UK I'm not thinking about bears on a course or cougars. You know, depending where you're at, racing, snakes and whatever else say. You know you're, it's just not over there. So yeah, it's Pretty different for sure. So, future goals, what you know, I mean you've got Moab and I don't know that you can get any bigger than Western states over here. Maybe that's not. You might be able to argue that points these days, but do you have any future US races? Thinking Coca-dona, maybe, does that interest or what else is out there for you over here in the US? When and where will we see you again?

Stuart: 47:36

Yes, so I haven't signed up yet, but I'm pretty much gonna do the Fiske Island 100, which is in South Carolina. That's in March. So that's a new race, first time they're running it, and I just love an inaugural race.

Richard: 47:52

I love it. I was just gonna say that's like this is your MO, here you're picking new races.

Stuart: 47:58

You know, you feel like you're on a little bit of an adventure with the RD at the same time. Do you know what I mean?

Richard: 48:03

Yeah.

Stuart: 48:04

And so I love that kind of. It all adds to the exploration, yeah, so kind of. So that's my next US race. Got a bunch of UK races Ultra Tour, monterey Rosa in September. I'm in the hard rock lottery, which is next weekend. I've only got four tickets, though, so I think my kind of my chances are like infinitesimal but you only needed one for Western states.

Richard: 48:29

So yeah, we'll see.

Stuart: 48:31

I mean kind of like one of these years that will come back. So you know, anyway, kind of I need to do another. I need to do another hard rock quali next year. Coca Dona, yeah, I mean that definitely. I mean it's a, it's a stunning race. Right now, kind of I'm more interested in just going to different parts. Mm, hmm, I probably won't be kind of going to going to Arizona again for a couple of years. I fancy. Maybe, maybe no business in Tennessee Next year meant to be a stunning race I'd love to get into. Kind of I'd love to do some of the older ones, so kind of like Vermont there was such yeah, have you been in a trail there?

Richard: 49:18

That'd be a good one. Some of the ice age races, ice age trail.

Stuart: 49:23

Yeah, yeah, kind of. Yeah, so kind of the kind of the Midwest slam, yeah, kind of maybe, maybe, kind of maybe 20, 25. I could look at the Midwest slam year when I don't have to get a hard rock quali, basically.

Richard: 49:37

Yeah. I was actually I was picked for a Vermont 100 in their lottery. When, when, when, covid hit and they canceled that race and the next year's race as well, and I really wanted to run Vermont 100 because it I for me. It was the race that reminded me most, I think, at least from what I had seen, of running at home to a degree obviously not 100 degree temperatures, but scenery wise it seemed pretty familiar territory and yeah, that was one of the, and I just that was one where I think they still have the horse race going on at the same time. So you're, you know you're on the trail and the horses come by you, and what not.

Stuart: 50:18

So that's crazy enough to be British, isn't it? Yeah, that's racing horses.

Richard: 50:24

I think there is a race like that somewhere in Wales man versus horse.

Stuart: 50:28

Man, but yeah, I think from I don't know.

Richard: 50:32

It sounds like something they would do. I love Wales. I'm a big fan. That's why I'm looking at the wild horse. Yeah, so I'm looking.

Stuart: 50:38

I'm looking at their sister race actually. So they've got a, they've got a hundred mile sister race to that about a month later For the call, the Epona, it's it's similar area, very slightly different. I mean, it's mostly a different course, but very similar, very similar area.

Richard: 50:55

You know the Breckenbeek, yeah, breckenbeek. There's a few races down there. The I think GB Ultras has a Breckenbeek and race down there as well. Yeah, yeah.

Stuart: 51:04

So, um, yeah, yeah, so kind of. So I'm looking at the Epona Again. It's another, it's another first time they've run it so kind of has that inaugural kind of like cache as well. They, they, they do buckles, which is, like you know, like I'm a sucker for a buckle, of course.

Richard: 51:21

Do you have a? Do you have a shelf? Do you have a buckle?

Stuart: 51:24

display. Yeah, I do, I filled it. No, no, no, I just got these. It's just like a regular bookshelf and it's got like those, um, you know, you get these little kind of like sort of plastic triangles that you kind of like you prop either kind of you can prop prop on or you can pop plates on or whatever. Yeah, so I just use. I just like got like kind of 50 of those from Amazon.

Richard: 51:48

And like a triple display kind of thing.

Stuart: 51:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So far I'm only using 16 of them, but I've got ambitions, god, I tell you you've got to fill them up.

Richard: 51:57

That's incentive. It's incentive right there, I think. And so that's you coming over here. What about somebody listening that says you know what I like the sound of racing in the UK? I really want some sausage rolls as parts of my aid station fare. I'm on a, I'm on a mission to introduce sausage rolls over here somewhere. If I could find them for sale or make them, I would 100% do it. But are there some UK races that you would suggest? Yeah, this would be a pretty pretty good one to start with, at least from a travel perspective, or, you know, or a scenery perspective.

Stuart: 52:31

So I think there's probably probably the two premier 100 mile races in the UK are South Downsway and Lakeland. So South Downsway, they do a 50 mile version around about the first weekend of April. They do a 100 mile version around about the second weekend of June. And they are, you know they are, they are fully marked courses, so kind of impossible to get lost. 100 mile you can have a pacer, 100 mile you can have a crew and there's a, there's a transit bus which takes you from the finish back to the start. I love that. But actually for both of them they're not far from train stations and, like I was saying earlier, uk trains run, uk trains pretty good. So you know, you're kind of your. You know you're a short taxi ride from the from the start line for both of those races and you're less than a miles walk from the finish line to a to a train station. So the South Downsway 150, both really really good races, as say, I think you know, for someone who wants to run a race in a different country but kind of have as much familiarity as possible, yeah, so that South Downsway is good. Lakeland. I mean, you've done it yourself, right, it's just a, it's just a stunning part of the world. It's, it's beautiful scenery. It's going to be you know kind of. You know kind of. It's not, it's not like a your own race, right? You have to. You know, like you say, you have to have a map and a compass. You have to you get given a roadbook with instructions which is hard to read which is hard to read in the rain at night. I have to say it's a tough one, but I mean it's this there's so many do it, I don't know kind of like, maybe kind of like 500 people do the hundred similar number to the 50, you know you can pretty and the kind of the 50, the 100 mile. The 50 mile runners basically run the 100 mile run. The 50 mile runners basically start at the halfway point on the 100 mile race. Yeah, so essentially you are never going to be outside or out of company from other people, like wherever you are, you know, unless you're, unless you're kind of P1, right Kind of, you're always going to have people around you. So you know you can, you can lean on them for a bit of navigational assistance. Gpx watches are permitted. So you know, kind of I think it's a, I think it's a perfectly kind of like doable thing for somebody who kind of can't map read.

Richard: 54:56

And it was. It was an absolutely stunning location for a race. And I tell you the start line there, when you run through the arch and up the I don't know the first mile or so until you go over the gate and you get onto the actual trail, the first mile or ish is through the town and I just the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. That whole town came out and was on the side of the road and was cheering and I mean like multiple people deep down the side, you know, down down the road. Just absolutely incredible it was. It was the, I guess, the closest I've ever been to sort of very UTMB-ish.

Stuart: 55:36

Yeah, and I know what you mean. Just incredible. Yeah, it's a great, it's a great experience to do something like that and you're in a. You're in one of the UK's national parks. It is a stunning location. If you're thinking of coming to the UK for a week, for a couple of weeks, you know, do you know, kind of spend a week in London and York and kind of doing the kind of the whole kind of like British history thing, and then spending a week having a walking holiday in the Lake District and like then leave your family and kind of go run a race while you're at it, I mean it's a, I think it's a great way to spend two weeks and there's plenty to do up there around the lakes.

Richard: 56:17

If you're not running, there's plenty to keep a family occupied over in Windermere or whatever else you want to go over there while you go, you know, be an idiot and go over hills at night in the driving rain and very very dark, boggy conditions, or at least it was when I was there and I'm not bitter, of course, but it was a wonderful race. I'm definitely going to go back and have another crack at that one. I think I just need a minute to sort myself out beforehand. But that first 50k, roughly the first, I don't know 34 miles or so. That was some tough going and you know, I tell them people over here I think I did almost nine, nine and a half thousand feet of climbing in the first 30 odd miles, and so when you tell people that here, they're like oh, you went up high. I was like no, I think the highest I actually went was about 2000 feet. There's just so much up and straight down and it's all very technical, so but it is a fiercely beautiful place for sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Stuart: 57:19

Absolutely, so yeah, so those would be the two that I'd pick.

Richard: 57:23

Well, so I know we've kept you on the line quite sometimes, stuart, and it's probably tea time over where you're at, or dinner time, I think in the south is what you guys like to call it, but where I live in the UK it's tea time for sure. So, but before we close out, you know I like to encourage guests to pick a song, so we have this sort of free to all choose to enjoy playlist that's out there on Spotify, and you know it should be something to lift you up or motivate or just get your butt wiggling while you're, while you're out by yourself in the dark on a trail. So did you have a song to share, and what is it about that song? If you had one that sort of floats your boat, why that song?

Stuart: 58:06

Yeah, so kind of my my I mean it's not really a very running song, right, but it's some life in life in color by by One Republic, which I think is an American band, and there's just a. You know, there's just a. You know the kind of the whole message that you know kind of like this is life in color. You know, when I'm kind of when, when I'm kind of like running through some beautiful parts of the world, or you know kind of talking to some wonderful people, kind of like for the first and probably last time, it just really feels to me like that is actually what this life is about. Yeah, you know, I feel like. I feel like when I'm out there I am living a life in color.

Richard: 58:47

I love it. It really is what it's about. That's why I go run. I'm not, I'm not about finished times, I'm about the finished lines and everything in between, the whole journey piece. So for sure I'm I'm with you on that one. I think you know when, when you're no longer able to do this anymore, you have those memories, those experiences to think back on and those places you've been. I think that's just that's incredible, and that, to me, is kind of the essence of this sport, right, because I'm not super fast. It's all about meeting the people and seeing the places. So, yeah, so let's do it again, and thank you so much for your time and your insights. Maybe Stuart has inspired you to try race abroad. We can certainly recommend the stunning UK, or at least piqued your international curiosity. So listeners out there, keep pushing, keep persevering and join us on the next episode for another epic ultra adventure. Don't forget to follow the show. I get notified each time a new episode drops and if you're already one of the pack, consider helping a friend find the show too. You can find us on social media. You can find us at choose to enjoycom, so definitely head over there if you have a moment. Until then, I would encourage you all to run long, run strong and keep actively choosing to endure whatever it is that life might throw at you.

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