Mastering Sleep for Ultra Performance w/Sleep Coach & Author Amanda Chocko

Transcript

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Hello and welcome.

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If this is your first time with us, thank you for stopping by.

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You're listening to Choose to Endure, the show dedicated to the non-elite runners, where we share stories, interviews, gear and tips specific to the tail-end heroes of the ultra-running universe.

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Yet please consider heading over to your favorite podcast app hit, follow, rate the show and, if you're getting something of value, definitely feel free to leave us a review too.

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My name is Richard Gleave.

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I've been running ultras now since 2017.

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I have taken on and finished numerous ultra distances, all the way up through 220 miles, and I am unashamedly a member of the back of the pack, just like you are Now.

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Do you struggle with sleep in your day-to-day life or as part of training, racing and recovery?

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How often have you heard that sleep is a really important part of training?

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Are you interested in learning how to get better, more restorative sleep, especially as it might relate to athletic performance?

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And sleep coach, but also the author of the best-selling book Relax Sleep Thrive your Five-Week Journey to Peaceful, restorative Sleep.

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After years of struggling with her own chronic insomnia, amanda turned her personal challenges into a professional quest, uncovering the deep ties between nutrition, sleep and overall wellness.

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Her book is a culmination of this journey, offering you and I a roadmap to conquering our sleep challenges, just like she did, and today she's going to share with us how pivotal quality sleep can be for athletic performance, especially for endurance athletes who are looking to push their limits day and night, like us.

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So stay right where you are.

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We'll be right back quicker than a rabbit in a carrot race.

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Discover raw, inspiring stories from runners who've been right where you are.

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This is the Choose to Endure Ultra Running Podcast With your host.

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He's English, not Australian Richard Gleave.

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Amanda, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for sparing a little bit of your time to talk with us today.

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How are you doing?

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Great.

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Richard, Thanks so much for having me.

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I'm excited to be here to talk all about sleep.

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Sleep, yes, exactly Now, in the book which you were kind enough to send me a copy of.

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You definitely start off by talking just in general terms about the impact of sleep and specifically the consequences of not getting enough of it.

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Just in general, and also from our perspective as athletes.

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Can you start by helping us understand why sleep is so critical, generally speaking, and potentially especially for endurance athletes, from a recovery and performance standpoint?

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Yeah for sure.

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Well, sleep is hugely important, as I said everyone in general, but particularly if you're an athlete, especially an ultra athlete, because of how hard it is on your body, and even mentally right.

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It's such a mental game and there's a lot of magical things that happen while we sleep, directly associated with the benefits and the consequences of not getting enough sleep.

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So in our deep sleep, that's when our muscles repair, our tissues repair, all of our hormones, including our growth hormone, is secreted, along with our hunger hormones, our blood sugar, insulin, our sex hormones.

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That's when our immune system is regulated, and all of those play into everyday life, let alone athletic performance.

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Then, of course, during REM sleep, that's when all of our cognitive things happen, where we consolidate memories and regulate our worries and mindsets, and so just the whole thing plays into really functioning on a daily basis.

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So after one night of bad sleep, you could find yourself walking around with brain fog, not feeling as motivated as you would like to be.

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You might be more hungry than usual and more apt to make poorer food choices.

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Your memory's going to suffer for that, you're going to have moodiness and then, if you have chronic sleep issues, that could all manifest into chronic conditions like type 2 diabetes, depression, neurological disorders.

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So the list goes on.

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So there are a lot of great things that happen during sleep, but there's also a lot of things that can go wrong if you're not getting enough sleep.

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Absolutely yeah.

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Now, as back of the pack, slower ultra runners who might be out there for a while, we do tend to find ourselves running through the night on longer races.

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Is there a way that we can look to adjust our sleep schedule in the weeks leading up to an event to better cope with this sleep deprivation through the event itself?

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Are there any strategies you might recommend for kind of managing this sleep deprivation?

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Because we hear a lot about hey bank, some sleep before the event and I don't know if that's a real thing or not, but it's definitely out there as a strategy.

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I don't know if that works or is really a non-event, but yeah.

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What kind of strategies might there be for adjusting our schedules in advance of races?

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And then how might we manage the actual deprivation during a race when we have to do it?

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Yeah, I could see where that could be very challenging.

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Well, during your training, it's really important to get on a regular sleep schedule and seven to nine hours is what the average person needs and it could be bio-individual, so really listening to your body.

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But then, when you're thinking through, you know what.

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What is that race going to actually look like?

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Are you going to be getting up two hours sooner than you would normally do?

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You know, during do during your day-to-day life?

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So you're really thinking through.

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Yeah, how can you gradually, in the weeks leading up to the race, begin to adjust your schedule to train your body and your circadian rhythms to be more in sync with what that might be body and your circadian rhythms to be more in sync with what that might be?

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You also might think about if you're tapering at that time and you have more time in your schedule.

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Some people benefit by adding 30 to 60 minutes to their sleep schedule to begin banking up that extra sleep resilience.

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But again, you want to be careful, you know, not to throw your own sleep rhythms off too much and also, you know, making sure you're still getting the right amount of rest that you need for just your recovery from what you've done during training.

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Yeah, and I've always wondered too, and maybe you can help us out with this Is it possible to practice or train for sleep deprivation, or is it?

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Do we have to take each night as it comes and it sort of resets, and talking about the circadian rhythm, like does it reset every night and we can go, or do you feel like there?

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Is a possibility to train for sleep deprivation.

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Well, I think you could potentially train your body to say, well, if you're going to do some night running or anything like that where you can do that kind of training and see how your sleep regulates.

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But I think you know, if I had to balance getting regular, consistent, quality sleep with experimenting and maybe throwing that off where you're not able to get that sleep, I'm not sure how much you would want to do that.

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Yeah.

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And then also, you can't plan for everything, right.

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I mean, you could be have everything, I'm sure, as you know planned out food and when you're going to rest and when all these things are going to happen, and then all of a sudden that day all those things go out the window.

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So I think, just being in the best shape that you possibly can, I think just being in the best shape that you possibly can, and then if you're planning on taking those rest breaks or short power naps or anything like that through the race, if you know the route well enough, if you know where there's going to be certain points in time where you're going to choose to rest or have a really challenging part of the race that you'll need to recover from.

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So if you know enough about what you're going to be dealing with in advance, you could try to plan out what that might look like for you.

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Yeah, and so now, given that many of us do have to try to juggle our training with full-time jobs and other family commitments, is there any advice you can offer us as far as integrating effective sleep practices amidst busy life schedules?

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How do we go about?

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You know you're talking about hey, just get the best sleep you can.

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How do we go about doing that?

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Yeah, this is a tricky one.

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It's not only ultra runners that deal with this, right, I mean a lot of people.

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Yeah, oh, for sure have so much to jungle in their lives and then you get to the evening and you're like, wow, this is the only time I have to myself.

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You know, this is my tv time or this is, you know, whatever, whatever you plan on doing.

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So I think it's really it's a matter of prioritizing.

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You know, there might be some things that you look at, all the things that you do in the day from week to week that you might decide to put on the side during that time.

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So, you know, family obviously would most likely come first to making sure you have that family time, but trying not to be that much of a superhuman that you're trying to cram all of these things in, because it's really important, you know, when it comes to sleep, for anyone is to get on a regular sleep schedule.

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Right.

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And really have that time in the evening when you're winding down, and we could talk about all the different techniques to help you get up to the point where your body just is ready for sleep.

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It's expecting it, and it'll make it much easier for you to fall asleep and have a good night's sleep.

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So you still want to make sure you're factoring that in as you're trying to juggle everything else along with that.

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Yeah, definitely in the book.

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I think I recall you were talking about making sure your environment is set up to wind you down at the end of a day, and I think you talk about light was one of the things you mentioned which was, if it's not a pun, a light bulb moment for me, but the artificial light and dialing that down and creating the kind of low light environment which helps kickstart.

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Was it the melatonin kind of?

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coming in?

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Yeah.

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So how would we go about, especially if we're when we travel for racing?

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We may be in a hotel or we may be in somewhere that's not our home environment.

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How do we go about setting up an environment that's sort of conducive at least to pushing up in the morning and getting that early sunlight, to?

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help start to set our circadian rhythms.

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That's when our cortisol should be its highest and then throughout the day, as the sun begins to set, that's when our melatonin begins to kick in to help us sleep and that is secreted by our pituitary gland in darkness.

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So you want it to be as dark as possible.

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So things that you can do to help with that is you know whether you're home or you're away dimming the lights, maybe an hour or so before bed.

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Try to ditch your screens, not looking at your phone and getting that blue light in your eyes.

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You want to make, when you go to sleep, your room as dark and cool as you can, because it's really important for your body temperature to come down a couple of degrees for sleep.

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Some people wear blue light blocking glasses.

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I'm one of those people, and if you do want to read your phone or watch TV, read a Kindle, that's something that relaxes you Having those blue light blocking glasses could help.

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But when it is time for you to go to sleep, if you don't have a fully dark environment where you're at, sleep masks really help with that as well, investing in a sleep mask.

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There are some people I've heard that travel and they can't block the light from the window, so they actually find extra sheets and blankets and hang those to make the room as dark as possible.

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If you're in a hotel room and then if you're going to a different time zone, that could also be a challenge as well.

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That's where you're racing.

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And I think even towards the end of the book you were talking about white noise and weighted blankets helping out, just trying to create the environment, I guess, to where it's more conducive to sleep.

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Yes, there's a lot of science behind weighted blankets and just having that pressure on our bodies.

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Think of a baby in a swaddle that gets relaxed and stops crying once that swaddle's on.

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Same thing is with adults as well.

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So when you're home, having a weighted blanket can really help with that.

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You might not want to travel with your weighted blanket they're like 15, 20 pounds with everything else that you're packing might not be convenient.

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But one thing that I do that's really helpful in those situations is I take a pillow and just resting that pillow across my abdomen or up near my chest just puts enough pressure and weight that that is really relaxing as well.

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White noise is also something that could be very relaxing.

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There's white noises, pink noise, brown noise, green noise it's all colors of noise and there are different frequencies that you really have to experiment them to see what works for you.

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Binaural beats there are all kinds of apps that have nature sounds and these types of sounds that could be very relaxing, and so having headphones that are comfortable, their headphones that are actually have sleep masks or they're almost like headbands.

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Oh right.

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In case you don't like sleeping on your headphones, so those could be very helpful as well.

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Yeah, now talking of pre-race and really just training in general, living life it's pretty stressful, it creates a lot of anxiety.

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Life it's pretty stressful, it creates a lot of anxiety and I think that's one of the if I'm quoting the book right sleep stealers that really stop us from getting a good night's sleep.

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And I really loved some of the items you've put in here on how to address the anxiety and stress and how to tackle the mind to help sleep.

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And I don't know if you're able to step because this one really spoke to me but you talk about making sure you write out to-do lists and then this one just I thought was great a worry list and then schedule some worry time.

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Can you go into a little bit of detail about that for folks listening, because I thought this was fantastic and I can very much imagine myself doing this as part of training and pre-race, for sure worrying about what's coming the next day.

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Yeah, absolutely Usually when people come to me with sleep issues, stress and an overactive mind are some of the top complaints, whether it's worrying so much that they can't fall asleep or waking in the middle of the night and their brain turns on and they can't get back to sleep.

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And that's something that I dealt with when I was having my insomnia.

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So when you're thinking about your bedtime routine and we talked about having that wind down routine in the evening, starting to get relaxed and removing the lights and stopping working and all of those things, part of that routine could be something like journaling, to-do lists, worry lists, and these are all things that kind of get all of the thoughts and worries and anxieties that you have in your head out of your mind and onto paper.

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So one of those is a worry list, as you were just referring to, and then a designated worry time.

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So the thing that's bothering you anxiety about the race or anything else that might be going on through your mind is to jot those down and tell yourself I am not going to solve this right now and I am going to be so much better off if I get a good night's sleep to be able to deal with these worries so much better off if I get a good night's sleep to be able to deal with these worries that I'm going to designate a worry time tomorrow for 15 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever, to address these thoughts and think of.

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Either am I going to problem solve them, or are they things that I'm just blowing out of proportion.

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So often, if things seem so much worse at night and then we wake up the next day and it's really not as bad as we thought it was going to be, say, I'm going to just table this till tomorrow and then start thinking through these things so I can get them out of my head tonight.

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I really love that concept and it works mid-race too, actually, but I love it.

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Just kind of get that stuff out of your head and give it a time and space to worry about it and find a solution and not have it dominate your present moment and really steal the time that you're in right now.

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I love that and I'm definitely going to try that one.

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Yeah, there's another little trick.

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I don't know if I mentioned it in the book or not.

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Another little trick I don't know if I mentioned it in the book or not.

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So my worries were always.

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My kids make me worry.

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Yes, they're adults still make me worry.

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I have one son.

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He's an adventurer.

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He's jumping off cliffs, he's doing all kinds of crazy things.

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He travels all over the world, always worrying.

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So I would be texting him all the time just to make sure he was alive.

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So I would be texting him all the time just to make sure he was alive and I would end all of my texts with hashtag warrior, so he knows that I'm thinking.

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So he said something really that made me think and really changed just the way I think about these things, and he said change your O to an A Hashtag warrior.

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So every time I start getting anxiety or I'm worrying about something in the future, something's going to happen.

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I'm not going to be able to handle it.

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I just say to myself hashtag warrior, that no matter what it is, I'm going to get through it and it's going to be okay.

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Otherwise I could just drive myself insane.

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So that's been like a little mantra of mine when I get into those states of mind and I write that down as well.

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That's brilliant.

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I love that.

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I'm definitely going to steal that, if you're okay with it.

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That's really cool yeah.

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I like it a lot.

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Now, one of the other things you get into to some degree in the book here is nutrition, what you put into your body and that's going to affect the output from a sleep perspective.

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So are there foods you might recommend, or what might you recommend, to enhance our sleep quality, but also that we should probably try to stay away from if we can?

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That would not be good for our sleep.

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Nutrition is very important when it comes to sleep and you're having as close as you can to a whole food nutrient dense diet is something I recommend for everybody, Because if you have certain nutrient deficiencies, it could impact your sleep as well, and then you want those macronutrients.

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You need that protein, right.

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That's what's going to help with your tissue repair and building back your muscles, and you know that's complex carbohydrates that are going to help restore your glycogen and give you that energy that you need to get through a race or sleep.

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It's good for sleep as well, you know.

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So really thinking about having those types of foods sweet potatoes, I think, are a great complex carbohydrate to end both for running as well as when you're thinking about nutrition for sleep.

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Tryptophan is something that is noted to help.

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It's a precursor to serotonin and melatonin, so foods that are high in tryptophan could be helpful.

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So everybody thinks about that thanksgiving meal yeah, you're turkey, right yeah?

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yeah, where everybody's on the couch now, some of that maybe because we eat a ton of food quite possibly trying to process all of it, but turkey, nuts and seeds, eggs, protein they all have tryptophan in them, so they're good.

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It's really important for a good sleep to finish that meal a couple of hours before you go to bed.

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This way your body isn't trying to digest all that food, you don't have to worry about stomach upset, things that might keep you up at night.

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Also, digestion raises our body temperature and then again, as we talked about earlier, we want that to lower.

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But if you do want to have a snack before you go to bed, sometimes some yogurt, greek yogurt, plain cottage cheese those all have the protein and the tryptophan as well.

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That can help you to go to sleep.

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And what kind of stuff would we stay away from?

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All that can help you to go to sleep, and what kind of stuff would we stay away from?

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Yes, I think, when it comes to sleep, and probably training and racing as well, staying away from artificial, highly processed foods is something that is recommended because there's so many additives and chemicals that our bodies don't recognize that we can have a reaction to.

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So you know, you want to really avoid those, to avoid having food sensitivities, because if you have a food sensitivity or reaction to something that you've eaten, that's going to raise your cortisol, it's going to raise your heart rate and it's going to be something that's going to be disruptive to your sleep.

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Something that's going to be disruptive to your sleep.

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So you want to stay away from, from artificial colorings, flavorings and processed foods in general.

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Eating foods that are very spicy isn't always recommended before bed.

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That also can heat up your body, give you gastrointestinal issues.

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It can rev you up as well.

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Alcohol is something that is super disruptive to sleep.

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Relaxing with a glass of wine is something that I used to enjoy at the end of the day.

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And it is a sedative.

00:22:44.840 --> 00:23:07.238
It will help you fall asleep, but it has a rebound effect once it processes through our liver and that might be one of those things that's going to wake you up in the middle of the night, or certainly you'll mess with your sleep cycles and you may not feel as refreshed the next day as you need to be, especially if you're going to be training or in that race.

00:23:07.238 --> 00:23:13.307
Caffeine you know, really watching the timing of your caffeine is important.

00:23:13.307 --> 00:23:20.625
Caffeine could be great to help you during the rings to get through those times where you may get tired.

00:23:20.625 --> 00:23:26.243
But when you're, when you're training, having caffeine too late in the day, there's.

00:23:26.243 --> 00:23:35.175
Caffeine has a half-life of eight to ten hours, so it could still be in your your system, so it's a stimulant, right?

00:23:35.175 --> 00:23:41.008
So obviously it's going to mess with your sleep, but it's also just something.

00:23:41.028 --> 00:23:45.041
We have another chemical that's secreted in our brains.

00:23:45.041 --> 00:23:50.180
It's called adenosine and that's what builds up our sleep pressure throughout the day.

00:23:50.180 --> 00:24:01.865
So the longer you're awake, that sleep pressure builds up and caffeine blocks the receptors for adenosine Adenosine, adenosine, depending on how you pronounce it.

00:24:01.865 --> 00:24:10.061
So that could keep you from falling asleep, but it could also be something that helps you to prevent you from getting tired during a race as well.

00:24:10.061 --> 00:24:11.865
Having that caffeine To prevent you from getting tired during a race as well.

00:24:11.865 --> 00:24:19.657
Having that caffeine, as long as you're thinking about the timing of it for when you do want to go to sleep, that it's not going to be in your system.

00:24:19.657 --> 00:24:23.203
So it's all really playing with the timing of these things.

00:24:23.203 --> 00:24:24.547
That's important.

00:24:25.048 --> 00:24:29.224
That's pretty interesting and you talked about caffeine being a stimulant.

00:24:29.224 --> 00:24:41.238
Would you recommend any other kind of either natural sleep aids or other supplements that might be out there, whether holistic or otherwise, for anybody really trying to improve their sleep?

00:24:41.238 --> 00:24:44.846
And, typically, how safe and effective do you feel these are?

00:24:44.846 --> 00:24:46.796
Are they regulated at all or no?

00:24:47.457 --> 00:24:58.163
Unfortunately, supplements are not regulated, so you really want to make sure you're getting it from a trusted source that has like third party testing.

00:24:58.163 --> 00:25:07.550
If you have influencers that you listen to, that you really trust that might be a way to go, but that doesn't mean follow anything that you hear on the internet.

00:25:07.550 --> 00:25:11.173
Obviously you want to make sure it's a trusted source.

00:25:11.173 --> 00:25:22.820
I get my supplements usually at a nutrition store, where I know the quality tends to be a bit better, so it really depends where you live and what you have access to.

00:25:22.820 --> 00:25:31.280
Magnesium is a great supplement for sleep, and most of us are deficient in magnesium anyway.

00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:52.630
Stress reduces your magnesium and our soils aren't as nutrient rich as they used to be, so our food doesn't have as much magnesium as it used to Stress everything over exertion of your body can deplete your magnesium, so magnesium glycinate is one of as many types of magnesium.

00:25:52.630 --> 00:26:02.178
Glycinate is one that is known to help with sleep, so usually 350 to 400 milligrams about an hour or so before bed is known to be helpful.

00:26:03.422 --> 00:26:07.752
Theanine is another supplement that is helpful.

00:26:07.752 --> 00:26:10.200
You hear about theanine that's in green tea.

00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:13.461
Helps with focus, but it also helps with sleep.

00:26:13.461 --> 00:26:16.865
It's a precursor to GABA, which is important for sleep.

00:26:17.674 --> 00:26:21.202
And then there's another supplement that Andrew Huberman.

00:26:21.202 --> 00:26:23.748
He's a neuroscientist.

00:26:23.748 --> 00:26:51.085
He's very popular online for like biohackers, and probably many of your athletes might listen to him, and he talks about sleep a lot, and he recommends apigenin, which is not as well known as a supplement and as a derivative of chamomile, so chamomile tea can also be helpful, but apigenin is really known to be helpful with that overactive mind, so it calms your mind in the evening as well.

00:26:51.085 --> 00:26:58.266
So that's another, and that, I believe, is a 50 milligram dose of that, which is usually one pill in a bottle.

00:26:58.266 --> 00:26:59.436
So that's something.

00:26:59.436 --> 00:27:25.989
But I think it's really super important that, no matter what supplements you're using, what foods, you're trying, obviously when you're training, is to really test your tolerance of these things, because everybody's different, all of our physiologies are different, or we might be on different medications or have other circumstances that might impact how these things react with our bodies and minds.

00:27:27.035 --> 00:27:27.958
Fantastic, definitely.

00:27:27.958 --> 00:27:29.402
I'm going to investigate some of those.

00:27:29.402 --> 00:27:33.457
And now earlier, earlier we talked about the quantity of sleep.

00:27:33.457 --> 00:27:39.102
We want to make sure we get seven to nine somewhere in that range, hours of sleep per night.

00:27:39.102 --> 00:27:43.424
But, but also I want to try to get to the quality of sleep too.

00:27:43.424 --> 00:27:46.788
I think there are a number of stages that you that you highlight during the book.

00:27:46.788 --> 00:27:55.682
There's a deep sleep stage, which was for muscle recovery, which you talked about, which definitely is of interest to us, and then the REM sleep, which I think you said was all you know.

00:27:55.682 --> 00:28:06.589
More on the cognitive side, how do we maximize our ability to get quality sleep in addition to the quantity of sleep that we're looking for generally speaking?

00:28:07.134 --> 00:28:11.726
I think it's going to be really all of the things that we've been talking about.

00:28:11.726 --> 00:28:28.546
I think it's going to be really all of the things that we've been talking about the sleep hygiene, having that wind down routine, having that sleep environment optimized for yourself, really thinking about your nutrition, your stress management these are all going to play into getting that quality sleep.

00:28:28.546 --> 00:28:47.367
Having that room dark and cool, having comfortable bedding all the things that we talk about that all plays into those sleep cycles and making sure that you have the quantity alongside of that to be able to go in and out of those sleep cycles.

00:28:47.367 --> 00:28:58.622
We tend to have our deep sleep more in the beginning of the sleep cycle and our REM sleep is more towards the end of the sleep cycle, but it happens all through the night.

00:28:58.622 --> 00:29:01.501
I wear an Oura ring.

00:29:02.144 --> 00:29:02.505
Oh yes.

00:29:07.076 --> 00:29:08.698
Which is a sleep tracker.

00:29:08.698 --> 00:29:27.847
As you know by my book, I believe in tracking your sleep, especially if you're trying to figure out why you might be having sleep issues is to track your sleep quality against those daily habits that we talked about, seeing if you could adjust the timing of those things, oura Ring.

00:29:27.847 --> 00:29:32.430
And then there's the Whoop Band, which a lot of athletes use as well.

00:29:32.430 --> 00:29:36.672
It's where you know it gives you, it tracks your sleep cycle.

00:29:36.672 --> 00:29:39.012
So it has an app that goes along with it.

00:29:39.012 --> 00:29:49.465
So after night sleep, you could see how was your deep sleep, how was your REM sleep, how many times did you wake up in the night, how long were those awakenings?

00:29:49.465 --> 00:29:58.467
And then you could start really trying to trace that back to the different habits or things that you might have done the day before leading up to that.

00:29:58.467 --> 00:30:00.097
That might have been to that.

00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:18.739
So just paying close attention to those things, absolutely, and and we'll get into the apps here hopefully in a minute, because you definitely do that towards the back end of the book you talk a lot about technology and wearablesables and other things that can help you kind of manage or see where you're going right or going wrong.

00:30:18.739 --> 00:30:19.982
So I do want to come back to that.

00:30:19.982 --> 00:30:37.384
But just on the quality for a minute, there's a debate, I guess going on right now in the ultra space or in the long endurance space, running or otherwise, about what is the minimum required amount of sleep to get to that deep sleep, the restorative sleep and the cognitive REM.

00:30:37.384 --> 00:30:48.444
When you're trying to sleep as short as you can in the middle of a race and sometimes you're chasing a cutoff and sometimes you just don't have time to get seven to nine hours of sleep in the middle of a race.

00:30:48.444 --> 00:30:50.617
So it I don't know if you have an opinion.

00:30:51.078 --> 00:30:59.000
There's a lot of people that are purporting to take dirt naps, these 10 minute naps, and they say you know, multiple 10 minute naps might get you through.

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:06.615
And then other folks say, well, 90 minutes is a complete cycle, so aim for a minimum of 90 minutes and then maybe you can reset.

00:31:06.615 --> 00:31:08.279
Do you have an opinion on that.

00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:21.148
Do you feel like there's any truth or validation in those kind of things, or are you like you know what you need, to make sure you get at least X amount of sleep to fully set yourself up for the next day?

00:31:21.789 --> 00:31:22.069
Yeah.

00:31:22.069 --> 00:31:30.186
So I think both of those can be correct, really, depending on the individual and the circumstances of the race.

00:31:30.186 --> 00:31:51.843
So those 10-minute little power naps can be helpful just to kind of rejuvenate, rest your body, rejuvenate physically and mentally, get your energy up and you won't be in danger of going into that deep sleep yet, because it usually takes about 20 minutes to get into deep sleep.

00:31:51.843 --> 00:31:59.317
Because if you go too far into deep sleep it's going to be harder for you to wake up and you're going to feel groggy.

00:31:59.317 --> 00:32:06.414
So that's where the argument of the 90-minute sleep cycle, which is typical, could come into play.

00:32:06.414 --> 00:32:11.615
Again, depending on your goals for the race, do you have time to do that?

00:32:11.615 --> 00:32:18.178
But there's also no guarantees that you're going to set yourself up somewhere and fall asleep, right?

00:32:18.417 --> 00:32:19.057
Right, yeah.

00:32:19.498 --> 00:32:29.963
So there's no guarantee that you're going to lay down and all of a sudden the Sandman's going to come and you're going to blissfully go off into your 90-minute race, sleep right.

00:32:29.963 --> 00:32:41.413
So it's really hit or miss and I think it really depends on the person and then how you plan for that race and what you've done up to that point in training.

00:32:41.413 --> 00:32:57.034
There's another technique that people could think about, and this would pertain more to those 10 minute cat nap or power naps, and it's called non-sleep deep breaths and there are different apps.

00:32:57.034 --> 00:32:58.441
It's on YouTube.

00:32:58.441 --> 00:32:59.805
There are apps for it.

00:32:59.924 --> 00:33:10.342
This again going back to Andrew Guberman, who I talked about before, he's got a 10 minute session that you can download if you do bring something your phone or something to listen to.

00:33:10.342 --> 00:33:28.789
But you can also train yourself to do it and it's really this progressive relaxation exercise where you're sitting or laying down, your eyes are closed and you take deep breaths to relax yourself and you do this visualization exercise.

00:33:28.789 --> 00:33:45.231
It's almost like a body scan where you've gone through your whole body and really paying attention for every finger, I mean like every part of your body you've gone through slowly, and this has been known to almost replicate that 10-minute cat nap.

00:33:45.231 --> 00:33:49.090
So that could be something to look into as well.

00:33:49.619 --> 00:33:51.969
Yeah, I definitely like that idea.

00:33:51.969 --> 00:33:57.604
Are there any techniques to help us get to sleep quickly when we're lying down?

00:33:57.604 --> 00:34:07.050
So you're in one or other of these boats as a runner, usually you have planned to sleep at a specific place because they have an actual sleep station there.

00:34:07.050 --> 00:34:13.780
So you're okay, I'm going to go until I hit this spot and I know there's a cot there that they've set up that I can try to sleep on.

00:34:13.780 --> 00:34:19.164
I plan to there, regardless of my state at the time that I arrive there.

00:34:19.164 --> 00:34:29.351
And then there are other folks that just go and go and go and go until they drop and they sleep wherever they're at, like if it's on a trail or wherever it is, they just go over there.

00:34:29.471 --> 00:34:31.172
And people kind of get caught between the two.

00:34:31.172 --> 00:34:40.257
And so if you're lying there in one of these planned sleep stations and you're just kind of staring at the wall and you can't sleep, it's kind of a waste of time.

00:34:40.257 --> 00:34:42.108
So you might as well just get up and carry on.

00:34:42.108 --> 00:34:47.853
But are there any techniques or tricks to help yourself fall to sleep while you're lying there?

00:34:47.853 --> 00:34:51.190
I mean, I go back to my days as a kid and counting sheep.

00:34:51.190 --> 00:34:54.070
I don't know if that's a valid technique.

00:34:54.311 --> 00:34:55.978
It could be it works for you.

00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:01.809
Yeah, I mean whatever works, I suppose, but I don't know if there's anything more scientific than that you might be able to share or know.

00:35:02.371 --> 00:35:04.266
Yeah, so there are different things you could try.

00:35:04.266 --> 00:35:20.137
Well, one, if you do are able to have access, and if you have a crew following you or have supplies of some kind following you or have supplies of some kind, if you have that sleep mask and those headphones to create that darkness, it could be very helpful.

00:35:20.137 --> 00:35:28.108
Right, and to also you know that white noise or those you know anything that's going to drown out the extraneous noise.

00:35:28.728 --> 00:35:29.811
Right it can be helpful.

00:35:29.811 --> 00:35:35.773
So having those headphones and that mask to be helpful at first.

00:35:35.773 --> 00:35:38.987
But then there's different breath work.

00:35:38.987 --> 00:35:46.990
You could try there's box breathing, which is inhaling four seconds, slowly, hold four seconds.

00:35:46.990 --> 00:35:58.101
Exhale four seconds, hold four seconds, four seconds.

00:35:58.101 --> 00:36:03.516
So focusing on your breath and trying to not be in your head or being distracted by the noises around you could be helpful as well.

00:36:03.516 --> 00:36:17.072
Yeah, as well as that non-sleep deep rest that we talked about, which is also yoga nidra is what it's called, but it's more of a meditation and you're not doing sun salutations or anything like that or something like yoga yeah so.

00:36:17.353 --> 00:36:25.873
So those are things that that I would recommend that could be helpful for that, or you know, counting sheep, if that's or counting sheep.

00:36:25.932 --> 00:36:29.599
Yes, there aren't many sheep where and where we live in texas, but there are where I came from in england.

00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:42.829
Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's visualization visual, visualizing yourself on a beach, by the water, whatever is a relaxing scenario for you that you can visualize.

00:36:42.829 --> 00:36:55.326
Meditation is also something that is super helpful for that, and not necessarily only when you're trying to fall asleep, but having a regular meditation practice.

00:36:55.326 --> 00:37:16.717
For me, how that's been helpful is I think of it as brain training and learning how to focus on your breath and let thoughts just pass and not getting drawn in down the rabbit hole of your thoughts and getting your anxiety up, which is certainly not going to help you fall asleep, is very helpful.

00:37:16.717 --> 00:37:25.268
So I've been able through a regular meditation practice, particularly if I wake up in the middle of the night and I can't get back to sleep if my mind turns on.

00:37:25.268 --> 00:37:30.190
I'm able to get back to sleep because I don't get caught up in my brain.

00:37:31.219 --> 00:37:34.309
Yeah, I think that's great advice, not just for being able to sleep.

00:37:34.309 --> 00:37:41.041
But, folks, if you're in the middle of a race to the ability to kind of have a strong mindset, to relax, remain calm.

00:37:41.041 --> 00:37:50.103
You then are more inclined to think clearly and problem solve, because we have problems all day long out on the trail.

00:37:50.103 --> 00:37:51.527
So I just think that's.

00:37:51.527 --> 00:37:54.641
You know, those breathing techniques in the book were tremendous.

00:37:54.641 --> 00:38:00.963
I know I was trying the four, seven, eight technique from the book, trying that out, and it's amazing how these things work.

00:38:01.224 --> 00:38:04.190
Yeah, I know it is, it's so simple.

00:38:04.190 --> 00:38:06.621
But you think, oh, it's not going to work.

00:38:06.721 --> 00:38:09.503
Right, but it does, it really does.

00:38:10.164 --> 00:38:10.786
Yeah, it does.

00:38:10.786 --> 00:38:11.507
You have to try.

00:38:11.507 --> 00:38:13.489
There's so many different things you could try.

00:38:13.489 --> 00:38:29.514
It's just experimenting on what works for you and while you're training is probably the best time to do that so you have it ready to go and then you custom your brain and your body to those things as well, where it will respond better.

00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:38.670
Yeah, I love the generally speaking training or not, I love the idea of remaining calm, relaxed and sort of present cognitively.

00:38:38.670 --> 00:38:42.027
I think is a great thing for living life and for running races.

00:38:42.027 --> 00:38:46.762
So, generally speaking, I was a fan of those breathing pieces of the book.

00:38:46.983 --> 00:38:49.068
Good, I'm glad, that worked for you For sure.

00:38:49.108 --> 00:38:52.525
The other thing I know I wanted to come back to this the apps.

00:38:52.525 --> 00:39:03.760
So there's an, there's an app for everything these days and and in the book yeah, in one of the chapters that was the end, I think you get into some of the apps that are out there and available to help sleep and to track sleep.

00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:08.188
You talked about the the aura, aura, aura, aura or a ring.

00:39:08.409 --> 00:39:16.206
Yes, aura, aura ring and I know I have a garmin watch that has heart rate stuff that tracks sleep overnight and so on.

00:39:16.206 --> 00:39:17.811
But what else is out there?

00:39:17.811 --> 00:39:26.172
What other apps would you recommend that people go look for and try out to help with sleep and to help kind of manage sleep?

00:39:29.083 --> 00:39:33.431
Yeah, so there's a sleep app and the name is Skate case, if I can get it to you for the show notes.

00:39:33.431 --> 00:39:37.326
I probably talked about it in the book but I don't know how it does it.

00:39:37.326 --> 00:39:40.788
But you put it I think it goes by your breathing.

00:39:40.788 --> 00:39:51.503
So if you don't have a device, it does help track your sleep and it can kind of tell when you're sleeping and when you wake up, where you can track that as well.

00:39:51.503 --> 00:40:05.056
But you know, like the Oura Ring, garmin, the Whoop Strap, fitbit, there are lots of devices out there, sleep trackers that have apps that go with them.

00:40:10.780 --> 00:40:12.804
What I like about the Oura Ring is I tend to sleep on my wrist.

00:40:12.804 --> 00:40:21.130
I put my hand up, so having something on my wrist is disruptive to my sleep, where the ring kind of is not getting in the way for me of that.

00:40:21.130 --> 00:40:23.353
But yeah, that's just me.

00:40:23.353 --> 00:40:24.563
Everybody's different.

00:40:24.563 --> 00:40:27.210
We talked about the meditation and the breathing.

00:40:27.210 --> 00:40:29.903
There's all kinds of apps out there for that.

00:40:29.903 --> 00:40:35.474
So I like the Calm app and on there you have all kinds of meditations.

00:40:35.474 --> 00:40:45.934
They have a free I think it's like a 10-day meditation to try out, and then there is a subscription cost to the app, but on there you have just about everything you need.

00:40:45.934 --> 00:40:57.143
You have all the different sounds, the binaural beats, the different color white, pink, brown, green noises on there, nature sounds, there's sleep stories.

00:40:57.143 --> 00:41:01.092
You can listen to Matthew McConaughey tell you bedtime stories.

00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:04.065
My wife would love that one for sure.

00:41:04.065 --> 00:41:06.150
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure she would like that.

00:41:08.041 --> 00:41:08.923
Yeah, the breath work.

00:41:08.923 --> 00:41:11.969
All of that's on there and there are other ones as well.

00:41:11.969 --> 00:41:17.726
So all kinds of sleep apps and meditation apps and sound apps like that.

00:41:17.726 --> 00:41:21.943
We talked about the sleep masks, the weighted masks, the supplements.

00:41:21.943 --> 00:41:23.907
There's different teas.

00:41:23.907 --> 00:41:27.172
You know that I have in my sleep toolbox.

00:41:27.172 --> 00:41:29.545
You know the chamomile tea, sleepy time tea.

00:41:29.545 --> 00:41:34.766
You have to be careful of those in case of one that wakes in the middle of the night and has to go to the bathroom.

00:41:34.766 --> 00:41:39.228
You know, having those teams too close to bedtime.

00:41:39.228 --> 00:41:43.768
The blue light, black and glasses that's been a lifesaver for me.

00:41:43.768 --> 00:41:44.945
I swear by those.

00:41:44.945 --> 00:41:47.806
As soon as I put them on, I feel myself getting drowsy.

00:41:47.806 --> 00:41:51.726
But you have to really make sure there's all.

00:41:51.726 --> 00:42:05.393
There's so many of them now online and some of them aren't the quality that you want, so you want to make sure that they have the right amounts of light blocking capabilities.

00:42:05.393 --> 00:42:06.554
That's going to actually work.

00:42:07.681 --> 00:42:11.512
Is there a particular brand that you know are pretty solid in that space?

00:42:11.512 --> 00:42:21.952
Or you've tried and feel like, yeah, this, these are better than most yes, I use blue black okay and I believe it's blue, and then bl.

00:42:22.112 --> 00:42:33.208
Okay, okay, blue black I'm fascinated by this concept of the blue light blocking glasses because I I'd not heard of that before I started reading the book and I think it's mentioned a couple of times in a variety of spots in in the book and I was like, wow, this, this is really interesting.

00:42:33.208 --> 00:42:37.380
I've never heard of that before I started reading the book and I think it's mentioned a couple of times in a variety of spots in the book and I was like, wow, this is really interesting.

00:42:37.380 --> 00:42:47.590
I've never heard of that, and myself and my wife were on the phone, as most people are quite a bit, especially coming up to a nighttime, so definitely I'm going to go look for some of those, I think.

00:42:50.521 --> 00:43:07.474
There's another gadget that could be helpful, particularly if you get up in the morning and you're training very early and it's still dark outside, because it's really that light that we begin to wake up, and so there are light boxes that can emulate the sunlight.

00:43:07.474 --> 00:43:35.572
So I use a Philips Go light in the morning because I live in Michigan, I get up at 5 in the morning, it's still dark, and especially if you're trying to begin to set a circadian rhythm to have a regular time that you get up in the morning and you go to bed at night, having that light box on for about 10, 15 minutes when you wake in the morning could also be very helpful to start waking your body up to get ready for the day.

00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:37.682
That might be super useful.

00:43:37.682 --> 00:43:44.748
If we have a crew out in the middle of a race and it's very dark out somewhere, it might be really useful to have a light box handy.

00:43:44.748 --> 00:43:48.429
I don't know how big or small they are, but theoretically that could be quite useful.

00:43:49.081 --> 00:43:51.148
Yeah, they're definitely portable.

00:43:51.148 --> 00:43:53.588
They probably come in different sizes.

00:43:53.588 --> 00:43:55.927
You do need power for most of them.

00:43:55.927 --> 00:43:58.148
There might be ones that mine's so old, who knows.

00:43:58.148 --> 00:44:01.570
But there's also glasses for that as well.

00:44:01.570 --> 00:44:20.670
They actually they have the blue light on, like the top part of the glasses, and it doesn't shine directly in your eye but it goes through, I guess, your eyelid skin to the back of your eye, which could be something a handy tool to have as well if you don't have access to the light box.

00:44:21.059 --> 00:44:24.289
So that seems sort of like the reverse of the blocking glasses.

00:44:24.289 --> 00:44:27.489
It's sort of putting it in instead of pulling it out, which is kind of fun.

00:44:27.489 --> 00:44:28.181
I like that.

00:44:28.181 --> 00:44:31.202
We have both ways, yeah yeah Now.

00:44:31.202 --> 00:44:37.684
We talked a lot about pre-race and training in advance of racing and then during the race itself.

00:44:37.684 --> 00:44:44.043
We've got some tips on how we might stay awake if we have to stay awake during a race, or sleep if we have to sleep.

00:44:44.043 --> 00:44:46.128
But how about after a race?

00:44:46.128 --> 00:44:48.112
Is there a preferred approach?

00:44:48.112 --> 00:44:53.172
Is there too much sleep we can get after a race, when recovering from an ultra?

00:44:53.172 --> 00:44:59.492
Is there an approach that we might take, or is it just get as much sleep as you possibly can once you're done?

00:45:00.460 --> 00:45:05.117
Yeah, I think the week or so after you just have to listen to your body.

00:45:05.498 --> 00:45:05.639
Yeah.

00:45:06.581 --> 00:45:09.387
I mean, you really put your body through the wringer.

00:45:09.387 --> 00:45:12.773
And sleep is when everything.

00:45:12.773 --> 00:45:15.427
That's when everything happens right.

00:45:15.427 --> 00:45:16.844
That's when the recovery happens.

00:45:16.844 --> 00:45:17.907
It's during sleep.

00:45:17.907 --> 00:45:22.043
You know, we've said a number of times, that's where everything gets regenerated.

00:45:22.043 --> 00:45:24.672
You know our immune systems as well.

00:45:24.672 --> 00:45:25.836
It's really important.

00:45:25.836 --> 00:45:26.659
Sleep's important.

00:45:26.659 --> 00:45:36.181
So, yeah, if you're really training really hard and running 100 plus miles, you know it could really do a job on your immune system.

00:45:36.181 --> 00:45:44.144
So getting that quality sleep, enough sleep to regenerate that that is going to be super important.

00:45:44.527 --> 00:45:45.891
You know you don't want to.

00:45:45.891 --> 00:45:49.181
You want to try to stay as close as possible because you don't.

00:45:49.181 --> 00:45:51.688
You want to get back into a regular sleep rhythm.

00:45:51.688 --> 00:45:53.621
You know you want to keep that.

00:45:53.621 --> 00:46:03.005
That's you, that that's something that when you start training again for the next thing or just kicking butt in life, you need to have that quality sleep on a regular basis.

00:46:03.005 --> 00:46:09.186
So you don't want to be doing it for too long where you're taking long naps during the day.

00:46:10.050 --> 00:46:15.188
It's going to interfere with that sleep where you find it hard to get back on a regular sleep schedule.

00:46:15.188 --> 00:46:16.543
But definitely listen to your body.

00:46:17.447 --> 00:46:17.648
Yeah.

00:46:17.648 --> 00:46:31.811

Mastering Sleep for Ultra Performance w/Sleep Coach & Author Amanda Chocko

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