Marisa Rogers: The Art of Race Directing & How Runners Can Contribute to a Successful Race

Speaker 1: 0:00

Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the scenes in order to execute one of these fantastic races we all participate in? Maybe you've been out on your regular trail run and thought about what it might take to get a grace go in there. Or maybe you've been thinking about what you can do to contribute to a great race day experience as a participant, because, let's face it, if we don't follow the rules or we're not great custodians of the trail, the races may not happen again next go round. So if any of those questions resonate with you, then you're going to want to take a listen to this episode. Welcome to the Choose To End your Podcast, the go to show for Back of the Pack Ultra Runners. Join us as we explore uplifting stories, interviews, gear and training tips, all tailored towards the unsung heroes at the tail end of the Ultra Universe. My name's Richen Gleave. I've been Ultra Running since 2017. I've finished numerous Ultra distances internationally, from 50Ks all the way up through 200 miles. I'm a qualified US Ultra Running coach and I'm, unashamedly, a founder member of the Back of the Pack, just like you. Now with us today to share her insights is Marissa Rogers. Marissa has spent the better part of the last five years race directing for the excellent Ultra Expeditions Race Company in locations literally all across Texas, she is ideally placed to help us out with answers to these questions and more. If you're ready to hear what it takes to get Ultra Races up and running and how you can play an active part in ensuring their continuation year over year, then lace up your trail shoes and hang on tight, because we are about to dive in. Alright, so, marissa, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. I guess we should start at the beginning. That's usually a great place to kick things off with your journey into race directing. So what initially led you into that role? Had you been running prior to getting into race directing? How did you start as a race director?

Speaker 2: 2:25

So I actually had very little experience with running when I first kind of found out about Ultra Running. So originally I was on this big weight loss journey in 2015 where I ended up losing like 70 pounds in a year. But, as with most race loss journeys, you kind of get to a place plateau, and so I decided at that point to start running. I wasn't running because I enjoyed it, I wasn't running because I thought it was fun, it was purely just to burn some more calories. So definitely at that time of my life I was not a big fan. I ended up getting out of the relationship that I was in at that time and began dating my now husband, jeff, and he actually had always had a dream to be an Ultra Runner. The ultimate dream, of course, was to run the 100 miles right. So we began just doing some 5Ks together, some a little bit of, I guess, training, but most of the training looked like us taking off together and me watching his back for about 3 minutes before I never saw him again. So we were having fun with it, but I wanted to really foster his dream. I guess you know how your iPhone kind of listens to you and targets you with ads. We had been talking about this, I guess. Around my phone often enough and across my Facebook came an ad. I think this was January of 2017 and I see an ad for a 50K in Caprock Canyon and I had never even heard of that place. And seeing the photos, I mean you have this like beautiful red rock bison roaming free in the park. It just looks like a dream, and it really is a dream whenever you visit that location. But I remember telling Jeff the race was in April and, of course, not knowing at all what went into running a 50K, I told him oh, you should totally sign up and run this, having you know he had not been training whatsoever. So after laughing at me, he's like well, I'm not going to do that, but maybe we'll put it on. You know the back burner and I looked through their website and noticed that if you volunteer at that time you actually got a free race entry. So I asked him why don't we just go volunteer? I mean, this park looks beautiful, we'll camp out and then you can get this free race entry and do with it what you will. So we ended up at that time. I had no idea that this was their first year at Caprock Canyon, so it was the very first Wild Canyon Ultra. I actually didn't find that out till years later and we were their very first volunteers outside of their own friend group that ever came to a race. Also didn't know that. So we drove up. You know, seven and a half eight hours camp out in the freezing cold ice. I mean, you never know what kind of weather you're going to get there, and that year it was raining, icy, there was lightning, there was sleet. It was just crazy. And we decided to volunteer for the remote aid station, which was always planned to be unmanned, because you could not. I mean I guess you could hike out, but it's a good. I don't want to say like eight miles out. So whenever they were talking about this aid station and how it's on the back side of the big climb and it was going to be a steep downhill getting down to this aid station, I just thought, with Jeff being a nurse, it would be a good place for us to be. So we volunteered to go out there and we spent the entire day, like eight or nine hours, just sitting at this aid station cheering people on and feeding people our banana pancakes and just having a good old time. Well, after that, the next year Jeff trained and ended up wanting to do his first 50k at Caprock Canyon. So we had kind of stayed in contact with Jeannie and Jason and they were excited to have us back up, excited to see Jeff run. So we go up the next year Jeff ends up running and completing the 50k and I volunteered the entire day and it was a very fun experience to get to volunteer and also, of course, see my husband complete this dream of his at the time boyfriend. But at the end of the race that day, that night, I remember Jeannie making a comment to me we've been looking for somebody. Would you want to work for us?

Speaker 1: 6:47

Wow, yeah, you must have made an impact there in your volunteer shift.

Speaker 2: 6:51

I guess so Probably just my excitement. I yell a lot, right? But yeah, they offered me a job and I went for it, and so the first race that I officially worked for them was that September at the Piney Woods Ultra.

Speaker 1: 7:04

That's wild. I mean most of the time you hear from race directors that they're like seasoned ultra runners or they have some tie into much like Jeannie and Jason, they're already kind of doing that sort of stuff. But to have your limited experience and then to jump right into the role is a pretty different and interesting way to approach race directing. I quite like it. You get to bring a different perspective. So if you were going to look back from now, five years on or however long it is since that day, are there aspects of being a race director that you, when you walked in that door the day one of being a race director, you just were like I had no idea this was how it was going to be, or these were the things that I was going to need to do. And how did you build your skill set from and how did you get to learn about the ultra world?

Speaker 2: 7:56

Well, I think going into it, it was just what was appealing, and I think what you become very conditioned I'd say almost addicted to seeing at these races is the highs and lows of emotions of people. You get to watch people defeat the voices of doubt in their heads and I think there's something extremely beautiful about that. Going into it, I had no idea, to be honest, how much A that I'd be thrown up on or B, how many people that I would be hugging that are just sobbing and can't believe what they've accomplished.

Speaker 1: 8:32

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 8:33

It's really a beautiful thing and to know that you had even a small part in that, just to get to see that and witness that raw emotion that definitely is what kept me coming back for five years.

Speaker 1: 8:44

Yeah, I think that emotion is really an interesting one, because you can train physically for an ultra and to some degree you can train mentally for an ultra, but nobody tells you when you go run something like that especially if it's a race that means something to you, either from a location or because you're doing it for some external reason, you're running the race for somebody else or with somebody else. The emotions of these things is like a total roller coaster. I mean, I've cried in races and I've no idea why I just did, but it's a complete roller coaster of a thing to do and I don't think people really they don't tell you about that in advance. So yeah, I get the emotional aspect of it for sure.

Speaker 2: 9:33

And I think also just it's funny because as the race director at the finish line or wherever you are during the day, you not only see the runners emotions but you're also kind of mitigating their family's emotions, because their family doesn't know what to expect. They don't know that this person is going to come through with, let's say, bleeding nipples or totally dehydrated or yelling, for just all of these things that they probably have never seen, and so they're stressed out, they're anxious. What should I do? Should I make them pull out? Should I do this? Should I do that? And so you're trying to kind of calm everyone down, let the runner do their thing. It's like there's so many different levels of emotion coming from different places.

Speaker 1: 10:17

Oh my goodness, and I found this out recently when I was out in Moab crewing and pacing for a friend out there. We were at the second to last aid station. I'm calling it Giza Pass, but they always told me no, it's Geiza Pass. And I said, well, you know, potato, potato. Anyway, I was up there and it's pretty high, and so we were waiting on Agatha to come through. But as we were doing so you're talking about the emotion of families and that's one of the most emotional places I've ever stood in an ultra race, because it was a hot day, it was close to cut off for that aid station to carry on and go towards the finish. And I mean there were families, there were crews up there all getting in a right old state because their person wasn't coming, and one, in fact I think two individuals, had wandered off course somewhere. And these two guys, their wives, were at the station and they were in a complete panic because they could see their person was way out and like how do I go get this person? Like clearly they're having difficulties, what can I do? And so it's just this absolute roller coaster of an emotional aid station. So I had firsthand experience of that recently and I'd never been in. I mean, I've been mostly the runner, so seeing that from the other side is really eye-opening. And I totally get what you were talking about, because you're at the start finish line, so you get all the massive emotion of the people coming in to finish and all go off on a second loop.

Speaker 2: 11:48

Oh yeah, and on that note, just what you're saying. You know there are cutoffs to races and as much as you want to just say, yeah, sure, go for it, there's a level of safety that you have to be watching out for and if someone is taking that long, especially early on in a race, you really shouldn't be letting them back out on the course because they will get hurt. And I think you know people get angry and their families get angry, and it's kind of. I definitely know what you're saying about crewing, because I think crewing is almost just as hard as running the race. It really is, it's a tough job. It's so emotional and especially if your runner is chasing a cutoff, it's you know you're trying to do the best you can to support them. In doing so at least in my experience you kind of forget everything. And then you're like I mean, I crewed for Leadville, actually for Jason, and at one point he was, you know, so close to a cutoff that we couldn't get his shoes off and I literally untied his shoes with my teeth because I'm like you need to go, and who knows what kind of germs I got at that point, I don't know Wow.

Speaker 1: 12:53

That's devotion right there oh.

Speaker 2: 12:55

I was committed.

Speaker 1: 12:56

Your Leadville shoes with my teeth midway through a race. I don't know that I've heard that anywhere before. That's awesome, Well done. I had. I was in the lottery for Leadville this year and I did not get in, so I think it's probably a blessing in disguise, yeah who knows? One day, one day, I'm going to go race across the sky up there.

Speaker 2: 13:17

Yes, you should.

Speaker 1: 13:19

So you talked, marissa, about Caprock Canyon, and that is a really beautiful place with the, with the bison, which are a little hairy, you know they can be a little. I mean they're massive, they're like tanks. I had no idea quite quite how big those things are, but very cool, I have to say. So you talked about that being one of the races you really liked. Are there any other favorite races that you've directed and or memorable stories and experiences from the races that you've directed?

Speaker 2: 13:48

Definitely. I mean the number one, I guess, just for my personal history with it, of course, will always be Caprock and just the, the weather, that you never know what you're going to get, and the bison. So that's always going to be top of my list, but I'd say a couple of runner-ups. Southwest 100 was our 100 mile race out in Fort Davis, and just the amount of grit that you see there, not only from the 100 mile runners but any you know, even marathons, even the 10 K is a hard course at that. At that race everything was so that was a really amazing race and specifically at night, the way that the start finish was set up at the National Historic Site. You could see the runners coming across the ridge just by their lone little headlamp kind of peeking out on the ridge, so it's pitch black. I mean there's, there's no lights. Obviously it's a whole dark sky area and all of a sudden, and of course, as as the race directing side, you know you're, you're watching people's paces, you're kind of looking at your watch, you kind of know when to expect somebody, and then you just see the little headlight pop out and just go down the ridge, come down, go back up. It was such a cool site I mean that has to be one of the coolest things I've ever seen. So that's probably one of them. And then Border to Badlands was our race down in Del Rio. It's a beautiful park and I definitely suggest going just for the history. They have cave drawings down there. Drawings, paintings, cave art very historic. And I would say this one year specifically, we had this couple that flew in from Kentucky. It was in 2021. So it was right after COVID and people were searching for races and we were one of the few companies who just really fought through the permitting and just got our races back up. But you know there was a lot of guidelines to that. But they were from Kentucky and she was looking for a 50 mile race, just so happened across the one you know, the border to Badlands race and they flew all the way down for it. So, as we're kind of getting to know them, throughout the day, her boyfriend was running the marathon, she was running the 50 mile and in conversation come to find out that one reason she was doing it and had gotten into running was because she was a type one diabetic. She was kind of testing out how far she could go with being diabetic. She ended up eventually running 100 mile race. I mean, she's amazing. She's a fitness coach, she's just an amazing person. So she's a type one diabetic. It was her birthday that day. It was her first 50 mile race, his first marathon. So all these things are kind of happening and they weren't running together, obviously. So we're seeing. You know each of them at different times. He ends up finishing his marathon and in casual passing conversation he's like wow, you know, I wish I could leave and go get a sandwich, but I think I might miss her and I'm going to propose.

Speaker 1: 16:46

Whoa.

Speaker 2: 16:47

And I stopped and I'm like wait, what so? So we ended up kind of planning this whole thing. I had been crewing her throughout the day while he was. He was running, so her and I had kind of built this rapport going. So he and I made a plan, along with a bunch of help from everyone else around. She was going to run across, he was going to be standing behind me. I was going to grab her, give her a hug, turn her around and then let her turn around organically and see him, you know, kneeling. So it worked out perfect and we got the whole thing on video and of course, she said yes, and now they have the cutest baby boy ever, and so it's. That's the very memorable day for me, for sure.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Incredible.

Speaker 2: 17:31

Yeah, it was. It was awesome. And then I'm trying to think barrier Island was always a special one down in Port Aransas. You know that race was from the very first year. It was just four of us putting the race on the entire thing. So it's hard to get when you're a company that's based in DFW area. It's hard to get volunteers as well as just people to work your race all the way down to Port Aransas. That's a huge haul. So that race was always a work of just passion and grit and being up forever. It was like it was a tough one. And I remember in 2020, permitting for that race, of course, was difficult. And in 2020, some people were still kind of coming to races very nervous about the COVID and some people were just ready to not ever hear the word COVID again. So you kind of had like a mixed bag, yeah. And so that race, everybody was just and it always kind of has that party feel because it's the beach and everybody it's on a beach. Yeah, exactly. So everybody was just letting loose, having fun. After they would finish their race, they'd hang out on the beach. And we have this man, sean Beatty. He was an ambassador for Ultra Expeditions for a bunch of years and he had just recently, before that race, set the FKT on the Guadalupe Peaks. But it wasn't just Guadalupe Peak, it was like a few nearby. So he kind of had to bushwhack and get this FKT across a few of the peaks there. So he was coming down to run I think it was the half marathon and he finished running and I had bought him a bottle of champagne to celebrate his FKT. So he finishes the race. I give him a champagne. Later on in the night, after, you know, we had been up for, let's say, working for 15, 16 hours, right, and at this point it's eight or nine, the sun's down. I had seen him, you know, out on the beach, met people. He was hanging out at a bonfire, you know, he was just having a good old time. And he walks up and it's dark outside and I'm like, oh hey, sean, and he has the bottle of champagne and he's, you know, just drinking from the bottom. He's like, hey, do you want some? And at that point I'm like, rip my mask off. I'm like you know what, heck, yeah, so we ended up seeing some champagne on the beach and it was just really nice to feel normal again for a little while.

Speaker 1: 19:48

That's fantastic.

Speaker 2: 19:49

Yeah, it was fun.

Speaker 1: 19:50

Now you talked about the challenge of potentially finding volunteers at such far flung places when you may or may not have the company recognition necessarily when you go in that far away from your base area permitting to, I mean you definitely you've hit on permitting a couple of times there. So, from your perspective as race director, what are some of the biggest challenges that we might face or you faced? I always, always, I see that the call for volunteers at any company I've ever been to. Yes. And then permitting, I have to imagine, is a big one. But are those big? And are there any other big ones out there we should be mindful of as runners?

Speaker 2: 20:29

You know quite a few. So permitting, of course, is always hard, especially in a post COVID world, the way that prices have gone up, the way that people, especially for urban races. So whenever you're putting a race on in the city, it's, it's hard, and sometimes people don't really want to work with you. So permitting, permitting is a hard one.

Speaker 1: 20:54

I was gonna say how does permitting work? Do you have to go back to the same? Is this a with this part of your role, to go work with whichever agency at, wherever you were, and I guess it's. I guess it could change year over year. I mean one year they might like you and one year they're. They don't want to play ball for some reason, or they've had a change of leadership and they now you have to kind of work, your work, your relationship, all over again. I mean, it just seems like it's a, you know, it's a hit and miss each year and I would be very anxious about that. I think.

Speaker 2: 21:25

Yes, so I was a race director in doing the in person stuff, but I also, behind the scenes, worked from home for most of the five years as well, doing permitting, working on designs with our graphic designer and our person who was the manager of all the marketing. So I, I did, you know, and all of the vendors. So trying to find sponsorships, everything you know I kind of had, I kind of had my little bit of my hands and everything I guess I could say. But with the permitting, you know, it is about relationships, but so is kind of everything. If you're a race director, you have to keep and maintain relationships Because, granted, you could put on a solid race any day of the week, but if you're not a nice person and you're not developing friendships, why would anybody come back? And so I. But that's also just customer service in general, I guess. But specifically with the permitting, I think, especially when you're going to remote areas and working with Texas State Parks, once people meet you and they know what your mission is about and how much you actually genuinely care about the trails and about the park and about your runners and how committed you are to putting on a race that's not going to affect their daily operations, that's not going to affect their trails, you're not planning to leave garbage behind or leave anything undone. I think once A you communicate that and then B you follow through with it, it becomes a lot easier year over year to just kind of run a smooth ship.

Speaker 1: 22:56

Yeah, absolutely, I mean. I just it just seems like such a challenge each year, Every year. You got to keep doing that.

Speaker 2: 23:05

I think you know it just depends Once you kind of get the process down and you organize your schedule accordingly. I'm a big calendar person, so I was five, six months out putting things on my calendar. Okay, I need to do this, I need to do this. I would say the one thing with permitting people probably don't realize is how far in advance that you're working on the permits. So even though you may not get approval until last minute which is awful and totally happens that doesn't mean that you haven't put the permit in six months ago. So that's definitely a challenge.

Speaker 1: 23:40

Yeah, I mean talk about challenges. Yeah, because I assume you're out. Do you have to wait until you have the permit to really push the race, or are you out pushing the race thinking I'm going to get the permit?

Speaker 2: 23:51

Well, I mean, you have to advertise. You can't, you can't not advertise. So I think it's you can generally tell from the beginning whether you'll be permanent or not. I mean, even from initial conversations of, hey, this is our plan, this is what our company does, you get a sense of if you're going to get that permit or not. You know the part that comes in that's kind of harder, is less so about pushing the race and more so about okay, should do I buy all of these supplies? Do I buy these metals? Do I order these shirts? Do I you know it's do I line people up to work? It's kind of waiting game, but generally speaking, you should have a pretty good idea from the beginning whether or not you're going to be permitted.

Speaker 1: 24:33

Yeah, and I don't want to hold you to permitting on all the challenges I mean you may have one to me. It's just like that's a make or break deal, right? Without a permit, there is no race.

Speaker 2: 24:43

Oh, totally. There's no race. I would say another one, at least as far as ultra expeditions. You know you and I had kind of talked about this, but all of the races are all the way across Texas, it's not just in one area. So a lot of the races are in very remote locations and there's no cell service. So getting Wi-Fi to keep your timing up and to keep it uploading and alive is very difficult, you know, and you can put boosters up and you can do the best that you can. But there have been times where the whole system crashes and the Wi-Fi doesn't work and you're out there with time sheets just timing by hand, and that is so scary. You know you don't want to mess things up. And then you have, you know, 10 people coming in back to back and you're screaming and like did you get the time? Did you get the time? Multiple people with sheets, yeah, so that's hard.

Speaker 1: 25:38

I have a feeling this happened. I have a feeling you're speaking from experience here, yeah, and these are the things that people don't. At least one or two times.

Speaker 2: 25:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:46

I don't think we as runners really appreciate these kinds of things, which is why I think it's awesome we get the chance to chat with you and get your perspective as a race director, because I would never have thought of that. I just assume stuff works. I just show up and Right.

Speaker 2: 26:01

Well, I mean, that's the hope, right? That's the hope and prayer that it works, and nine times out of 10 it does. But then there's that one day that you know you're out in the desert middle of nowhere near the border of Mexico, and your Wi-Fi goes down and you're scrambling where are my timing sheets? And you know. Then you have volunteers who are willing to just sit there and take times down. But timing is important, right? I mean, timing is one of the most important things about a race and people want to know what their times are right away, and sometimes you can deliver that and other times you can't. So yeah, that's definitely a challenge.

Speaker 1: 26:36

I mean, we talked a little bit about planning and when things don't go right. Were there any other situations where stuff just went berserk? You know, you just weren't planning on this happening and things went south.

Speaker 2: 26:48

Well, one specific time that I can think of that I just, you know, you just have to laugh. So it was the very first year of our Southwest 100 race. And you know, very, very small race, the first year, very, very small race, I think in the 100 mile distance. I want to say we had tenor under. It was a small group, yeah. So we're out there. The race kicks off at 5am and the 100 mile runners take off and if you've been to that race, it goes down and then it makes kind of a right turn into this field that goes past the old hospital and the old barracks and then you start climbing. Well, we had told everybody, and you know, at any race don't just blindly follow the person in front of you. Everyone wants to just kick off and just run as fast as they can, but that person may not be paying attention and then now everybody's off course.

Speaker 1: 27:39

Oh no.

Speaker 2: 27:39

That happens all of the time. So this race kicks off at 5am and I think it was I want to say, it was just Jeannie, jason and I out there. So they had to run back to the trailer that we were staying in. There was this trailer home that was directly across from the park that we got for an entire week for, I want to say, like $250. It was an insane deal. Yeah, it was awesome. Never were able to secure that trailer again, unfortunately. But so they ran back to the trailer to go probably, you know, grab some food, whatever. So I was there alone and finishing setting up some other things before the other distances kick off and I look up and I see 10 headlamps running back towards me and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? So they all come up and they tell me we don't know where to go, we don't see anything out there. So basically, the first person had taken off, blown right past the right hand turn sign, and then everybody just followed, and so one of the runners said you know, I think I know what I did wrong. I think I'm going to take off and go back. So, half split up and went and took off and found the way and half stayed there and expected us to, I guess, adjust their time accordingly before they took back off. Oh, it was a nightmare. I had barely been race directing at that point. Who knows, maybe like six months. You're not prepared for things for 10 people just staring at you like okay, now what?

Speaker 1: 29:07

What do I do?

Speaker 2: 29:09

Oh my gosh. So yeah, thankfully, thankfully we were able to work it out and you know, they found. They found where they had messed up, but that was, that was a lot. And then you know there's there's just the random times where you get completely set up and the wind kicks up and all of your tents blow and all of your timing chips blow and packet pickup starts in 20 minutes and everyone's losing their minds and it's just. I think race directing the biggest thing about race directing is pivoting. You have to think on your feet, you have to be on your toes and you have to be ready to just make it work.

Speaker 1: 29:40

Absolutely. You know we talked about the permitting piece too, but I am super curious talking about pivoting to a degree, but I am really curious, too, what you know, what are some of the things that go into planning, getting an ultra marathon, getting people out of the starting corral, that we as runners might, might not be aware of? You touched on the technology a little bit, you know, especially out in remote places too. What other things are out there that we can bear in mind as we approach races? Next time we're out talking to a race director or running, some companies race.

Speaker 2: 30:13

Yeah, I mean so many things as I'm sure you can imagine, but definitely the logistics that just go into planning it. When you show up to a race, I think one of the things that people don't realize is how much the planning of the start finish line and the flow of how to move three to five hundred people in a way that makes sense into a very small area on a trail. That's hard, and so you know you could be out there a day in advance setting up tents and walking through things and picking these small details apart, because you want the flow to be right, you want it to make sense. Where do I put the aid station? Where do I put the portapotty is okay, if people want a race line photo. They definitely don't want. The portapotty is in the background so they can't go there. So then they have to go over here and you know it's just things like that that you probably don't realize how much thought and effort is put into the planning and I would say also just the amount of gear that you have to transport to put a face, especially when you're traveling eight to nine hours away from where your home is. I mean all of the trail marking stuff all of the tables, all of the chairs, all of the tents, all of the shirts, all of the metals, all of the timing equipment, all of the water. It's, it's a lot of movement and we don't have, you know, forklifts and stuff to move stuff around, so all of that's getting loaded and unloaded by hand. Oh dang it's a lot of work yeah and it's a long day, you know. It's waking up at two or three in the morning and just kind of bearing through the day because although you try to do shift work, you're never really at rest. You're constantly thinking about what's going on. Is that? Did that person make it through? Are they gonna finish? How is this? So that's, that's kind of a, that's the challenge. And I would also say just trail marking, especially whenever trail that's, you know, ten plus miles long, could be even longer, and every single one of those markers is put in by hand and granted, ideally you have a trail that you can ride down and you know, like an off road vehicle type of situation where you're carrying things, but most times you don't because there's a lot of single tracks. So You're carrying steaks and flags on your back, looking at a trail map, figuring out which is the right way that you're supposed to go and if you have, you know, volunteers or someone who's ever been at that race Not they can mark for you right, but then you have to do the due diligence of going and actually running the course and checking everything. So it's a lot of Work and then double checking the work and then still being anxious about the work. You know it's just, it's a lot of thought goes into every single part of a race and I, of course, I can't speak for these huge companies, you know, like Spartan or utm be here, these these huge companies, right, they are not probably so worried about a budget, but I would say, most especially texas companies. There's small operations and People definitely aren't doing it to get rich quick, because it's it's not a work of profit, it's a work of love and a work of passion, and so the amount of money that goes into just putting on a race you cannot imagine. I mean, and especially after twenty, twenty when all the prices went up for literally everything, it it changed the whole landscape of running and putting on a race and that that was hard, you know, and I'd say probably last. I know everyone sees the call for volunteers, but I mean truly there would not be races if you didn't have volunteers. And I think, especially with how far our races were, as you and I kind of talked about, it's hard to get people to come out and people who actually kind of know. I don't want to say that I'm not trying to say there's ever a bad volunteer, but we've all been at a race where the people are standing behind the table kind of waving at you. And then you've been at a race where people are in front of the table like what can I help you with? How can I? You know all this stuff so you can have a body there. But to have somebody who actually wants to put in the effort to be helpful and smile and encouraging. You don't always get that and that can change somebody's perception of your entire organization based on you. Know a volunteer that you probably have never met before that day and you can, morning of train, try to do some little training, ask them what they need. Runners don't always communicate because they're kind of out of. It is something like Get in front of the need, have the water, have the snack, have the enduro lights, you know, but that doesn't always. That doesn't always happen and it's hard. You can't control everything right, but as with, you know going out to eat and your waiter doesn't do a good job, or you know any type of customer service, face oriented Business. You're being judged on every single part of your race and it's hard when you can't control all of them.

Speaker 1: 35:15

Yeah, I think that's really interesting. That's not something, I think, that is Immediately understood by people like I know. I just listening to you talk there. It's really interesting to me. Yeah, the volunteers are really representing your company and you're putting your To a degree at least you know. You're putting your reputation really in the hands of people you may never have met before, may never see again, and I think you're right in that when you, as a runner, you're, you're. That's really all you see. You don't really get to interact with all the behind the scenes stuff and you don't see all the work that goes on before and after a race. All you see is is you know the handful of volunteers that are at the aid stations and that's how we make a decision on a race, and I would imagine that's Just thinking about that that's pretty stressful.

Speaker 2: 36:01

Now you got me thinking like so stressful and it's, you know, like I said, you're standing at the finish line trying to make sure that everyone's safe and you're watching your cut off and you're trying to, you know, keep your shift going and you're making sure all the aid stations have everything. And the hardest, the hardest thing to hear is someone coming through and finishing a race and saying you know, it was great, but at this one eight station, these people just really didn't seem to care and didn't you know? And that's that's the last thing you want to hear. But what can you do? You know it's, it's hard and I think, at least for me personally, I definitely wanted people to feel very Seen and heard and loved and valued and appreciated when they came across the finish line and starting the race and every moment that they were at a race that I was a part of, and to not have that happened due to something that's outside of your control, it's, it's extremely frustrating and it's hard.

Speaker 1: 37:00

Why have to give you guys dues the very first time? And really the reason I got into trail racing in trail racing before ultra racing in the first instance I was I was marathon guy and I showed up one time at the trail race just on the west side of Houston here and so I ran the race and I think it was a half marathon, trail half marathon. I came over the Up the steps and cross the finishing line and as I cross the finishing line the lady sort of said my name as I came across, handed me the medal, and so they gave me my time and I was like, wow, this is incredible. I've never heard anybody say my name as I come across the finish line is awesome and there was people hanging around and they were drinking beer and I was like this does not. This did not happen at the chevron houston marathon that I would just attended, you know. So, right, yes, I think volunteers and aid stations are definitely crucial, but so is the star finish line, and I think you guys are directors, at least in my experience have done a great job making people feel welcome at the, both at the start and at the finish yes. And really that's getting back to the race director stuff. I would love to know your take on if I was gonna go be a race director. If I had, if I was gonna try to start a race, what would I do to get started? What would be your guidance on my? I'm cuz I'm running around and I do I run around. We have a local park back here and I'm like man, this would make a great Backyard ultra, let's say right you know, this would be great, this would be awesome. I love to have people over here and show off this, this kick ass little Little trail in the in the back of my neighborhood, and it's only, you know, three to four miles tops around, so it would make a great kind of backyard thing. But where the hell do you start?

Speaker 2: 38:37

So I guess what I would say. As far as, if you're thinking about getting started, I think there's a lot of Ultra runners who have never volunteered for a race and have never crewed somebody. I would say if you want to be on the other side of a race, you really have to know what goes into it. So volunteering for a race would be the first thing that I would suggest, and definitely volunteering for every position, not only an aid station but also the start, finish. Volunteer for this setup, because a lot of people don't realize that your alarm goes off at two in the morning and you normally have to be on site by three or four and if you're not willing to kind of be on time and make that work, then you're not going to be able to put together a successful race. So I would say volunteering would be the first thing. And it's kind of like I guess I kind of relate it to when you go out to eat and everyone says you know, you can't really criticize a waitress until you've been in her shoes, and it's so true, you know, like you, until you kind of do it yourself and see what goes into it. It's yeah, it's a lot. So I'd say that and then of course it kind of goes back to permitting. I mean, a lot of parks, especially in the city. They don't allow races because they're either doing some kind of revitalization of the wildlife or the whatever the area is. They could be even having gardens and stuff and they don't want a bunch of people running around their trails. And I found, you know, we wanted to do a race here in San Antonio and there aren't. There are quite a few parks but many of them are either oversaturated with races because they're the only parks that actually allow organized races in their parks. So that's a big hang up for any type of urban race, especially inside of a city. So I would say, just getting in contact with your local permitting office at your you know, government and just kind of seeing what goes into it and if you can even have a race there.

Speaker 1: 40:36

Fantastic. And then, on the other side of the coin, there we as runners especially slower runners, much like myself what could we be doing to make the life of the next race director's race we attend easier?

Speaker 2: 40:50

Well, I think the biggest thing, and as with anything in life, is just giving a little grace. I mean, we are doing our best. It's not like anybody ever goes into a race day thinking how can I make this a horrible experience for these runners? Hopefully not so we're definitely trying, you know, to do our best and, like I said, you know we've probably been up at that point for hours and hours and hours and stressed for days and days and days probably haven't eaten, probably under watered, probably need to go to the bathroom and haven't, because you never get a moment. I mean, there's just it's pretty stressful. So I would say giving grace and also, especially when it comes to something like distance, people can get really hung up on the numerical distance of a race and I think if people would understand that, you know, I could go run the course wearing a suunto, you could run it wearing a garment, someone could run it wearing a chorus and we're all three going to have different distances. It's very rare that you get 100% on the money at a trail race, especially if you have trails that are single track, under tree coverage, way out in the desert. I mean, it's that's something that I think a lot of runners get extremely hung up on and it's almost usually out of the race director's control because we check and recheck the distance. But that's not to say that you know your watch is going to say something different.

Speaker 1: 42:17

How often do we run back and forth in front of your house trying to get to the 10.0 instead of the 9.93? And even on the same watch, if you know you talked about, we might have three different watches and three different distances on each one of those. Even on the same watch, I could run the route I know in my neighborhood and get a slightly different distance every time I run it. So yeah, a little grace in that respect, I think, is probably deserved.

Speaker 2: 42:44

Yeah, it goes a long way and you know some things are inevitable, like trees falling down, and you can't move them in time, so the course has to be redirected. You know there's just different things that happen. So I think just giving a little grace and understanding about that would definitely ease some pain. And then, okay, I know this is kind of silly, but the number of times that I have been literally cussed out about a shirt, I couldn't even tell you.

Speaker 1: 43:09

A shirt.

Speaker 2: 43:10

It's like a like, a like, a like the freebie shirt or. Yeah, people get really hung up on the shirts and it's, you know, if you think about production of a shirt and the design and then the time that you have to buy the shirt and then get it actually printed out, that's not going to happen in the last two weeks of a race, right? And I think people who signed up last minute and then get really upset about not getting a shirt, that's that's hard because, especially when you're running on a tight budget and you're trying to make everything work, you can't just buy a bunch of extra sizes of shirts on an unknown within the last two weeks, hoping that people will register for this race. So no, not everyone's going to get a shirt. And it's really frustrating when you know it's early in the morning, the sun isn't even up and someone's you know, cussing out your volunteer because they're not getting a shirt. It's like, oh my gosh, here we go again.

Speaker 1: 44:05

Wow, yeah, that's pretty wild. Yeah, yeah, that, and yeah, I don't know that I've ever heard of that, but totally we'll take that into account. I'm not a big shirt. I've got so many shirts. I'm like I love those companies that offer now and I assume, having listened to you just say that it might even be easier for those companies on the back end, but I love where they have an option to. You know, I don't want to. I don't want a shirt or any swag. I just want to show up and do the race and that'll do for me kind of thing, and give me. Give me five bucks off or $10 off, whatever it is Great option, love it. And littering too that's one of my pet peeves and that that actually was one of the things I was doing in at Bandera I mean, even such a beautiful place like that as I was doing my second loop, I'm constantly picking up stuff off the trail and taking, you know, shoving it in a pack and taking it to the next aid station. But what a terrible thing to do to drop litter on a such a beautiful trail really any, any of these fantastic trails.

Speaker 2: 45:05

Right and you know, ideally I don't think people are doing it on purpose, but you know, maybe you do get someone who's generally a road runner goes to trail and just think that that's what you do, and it definitely isn't because that could cost somebody as a you know, as a owner or race director. That could cost you your entire race. You know that that park or wherever you're running could not permit you the next year because you left their place a mess or, on the other side of that, you could be spending hours cleaning up trails after already you know being up for hours putting on a race. It's, it's not, it's not the best.

Speaker 1: 45:44

Don't litter folks, it's not great.

Speaker 2: 45:47

Don't do it.

Speaker 1: 45:48

We want those races back next year. Yeah, we definitely don't want to lose a permit. We'll attend, that's for sure. And these are beautiful places. I mean, treat them with a bit of respect, you know. I think they're, they're pretty amazing. That's my soapbox moment, anyway. So, Marissa, now you you've actually moved on from the race director or with with the ultra expeditions, and now you're a a race attendee rather than a director. So what do you? What do you look for when you're looking at a race?

Speaker 2: 46:17

Well, I will be completely honest in the fact that I am not an ultra runner. I've actually never even run farther than I want to say, like 15 to 16 miles in a day. So my, my idea of, you know, running a race is probably more based around the fun aspect, right, you know what? What's the after party going to look like? Um, I'm, I'm the same as you where, when I go to a race, I don't take a shirt, I don't, in a very nice way, say I don't want this metal, so it becomes clutter, right? So I? I think for me it's definitely. I want to support other race directors that I know, especially now that I'm primarily racing here in San Antonio, and I want to go to a race that I know is going to have a good finish line atmosphere. So I think those would be the two things for me.

Speaker 1: 47:08

Yeah, Now I'm curious. Now you mentioned other race directors. Is there a, is there a secret society somewhere of race directors that? Uh, you know you guys all get together in a, in a craft beer pub somewhere on a dark Saturday and talk about runners, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 47:25

The best way to get connected with race directors is to join running groups, because generally running groups are put on by race directors or uh, have a race director in them. That's how I know race directors in this area was just by joining a running group.

Speaker 1: 47:41

I'm curious too. Uh, when you go to these races, do you do, you, do you find yourself evaluating the other race companies or the other race directors? When you show up like, oh, I wouldn't have done that, or uh, or I kind of know where you're coming from with this comment, do you find yourself looking at that? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 47:58

Yeah, I would definitely be lying if I said, no, um, I, I, you know you don't want to. It's not that I'm being judgy, but I just definitely, with the flow of things, you think, well, this was confusing. Or, you know, things don't start on time and you're kind of thinking, well, I didn't really want to stand here at the start line for 15 minutes, but things happen. So I think, given that you may have those thoughts, you still know the tons of things that could go wrong and you know that these people are doing their best to put on a good race. So I mean, yes, the critiques can happen, right, but I think, um, I think, overall, I, I know what goes into it and I think just putting on a solid race where the finish line is happy, people are having a good time and there's a good atmosphere, that can probably mitigate any other worries that you have.

Speaker 1: 48:55

Awesome. Are you getting back in any time? Do you think? Do you have the bug to get back into it?

Speaker 2: 48:59

So you know it's funny, I was, I was crewing a friend at Bandera as well, you know, like two weekends ago or whatever it was, and so people have been asking me that question, right, and as we're crewing, we were out there for for all day One of the guys that was in our group. He kind of looked at me and he said so do you miss it? And without even thinking I'm like heck, no, it's not that I don't miss it, but it's, it's a lot. You know five years of driving all over Texas and there's five to six months out of a year where you're gone every other weekend and you know that that comes at a cost. And you know there was many times where I would be driving eight hours both ways to get to a race sometimes and you're missing out on a lot. I remember one race specifically, completely, you know, out of my control of. I committed to something and I wanted to show up but it was the weekend of one of my close friends funerals. So I had to miss it because I had committed to work this race. But you know you're missing out on, you know, family reunions, birthdays, everything. So, as much as I absolutely loved 95% of everything about what I did. There is not any regret with my decision.

Speaker 1: 50:24

I will say that yeah, I'm going with no. That was a very eloquent no, well done, yeah, no, no, no desire to go back just yet.

Speaker 2: 50:35

No, and it's so funny because it's just even waking up for that race to crew. It's early in the morning and everyone's kind of shifting around the house and sorting out gear and it's freezing cold outside and I'm thinking, man, the number of days that I was outside and the wind and the rain and the beating sun for 12 to 15 hours or longer, and then you wake up the next day and you're just haggard and your face is all windburned. It's like I put my dues in. I'm good, Thank you.

Speaker 1: 51:09

Yes, thank you so much. Yeah, okay, very good. Well, we do each episode like to encourage guests to choose a song on a different vein here that you can add to the free choose to enjoy Spotify playlist, something usually to lift you up or motivate, get your butt moving while you're out on a trail or in a five or 10K road race, whichever you like to do. Marissa, did you have a song that you'd care to add and if so, what is it and why did you pick this one?

Speaker 2: 51:42

Well, so it was a remix of the song, getting Jiggy with it because I think for me, when I run, definitely listening to music that has this upbeat, positive and sometimes faster tempo, it definitely motivates me. So I would say that was the one for me. And who doesn't love Will Smith? I mean honestly.

Speaker 1: 52:02

Yeah, for sure, and it's a good remix too.

Speaker 2: 52:05

It really is, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 52:08

It is. It's faster than the original, I will say I'll put it on the playlist and you guys can judge for yourselves, but I think it's awesome and you definitely want to. You know the move and it's the one you wanna do when you're out there. I think it's fantastic. It's a beast of a song. Well, as we come to the end of another episode, definitely, marissa. Thank you again for your time and your insights. Without race directors and their efforts to go above and beyond putting on these events and dealing with all of that pre-planning and all of the permits and the challenges of just even getting to the start line, never mind what comes after it, obviously we as runners wouldn't be able to do the thing we love to do. So huge kudos to all the race directors, all the race companies out there, for getting it done. You guys are absolutely amazing and as runners, we definitely have the responsibility to uphold the race rules and whatever you have in place, because that may be the reason that the race doesn't happen again next year if we don't. So, and please don't litter on the trail. I find that kind of disrespectful. Anyway, if you do have interest, we did chat about the excellent folks over at Ultra Expeditions too. If you have interest in their races, you can go find them at ultraexpeditionscom. They have a really cool Texas Eco Series which is pretty unique. It takes in races in all the different ecosystems that Texas has to offer, which, if I'm getting my Texas knowledge right, would be coastal canyons, forest, prairies and mountains. And if you're someone like me who really enjoyed the beach race, orion, which used to be put on by trail racing over Texas down in Galveston back in the day, then the barrier island race down on Mustang Island in Port Aransas that Marisa was talking about earlier, I think it's each November. It's pretty awesome and what a great place for a weekend race. And who doesn't like sand and a margarita with their 50 miles right? So make sure to get over to their website, check them out, go sign up for a race when you have a moment. There's some beautiful locations. Go run with the Texas bison herd up at Caprock Canyon and go run out on the borders border to Badlands there out on the Mexico border and see the Rio Grande, which is amazing, and those cave paintings totally cool. In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe to the show, get notified each time a new episode comes out and, of course, follow, share and review. Doing any of those things really does help with the algorithms, which in turn, helps get the word out and helps others find the show. You can find us on Instagram and Facebook and over at choose2endurecom, and now also on YouTube as well for a video version, so be sure to head over to any of those and check us out, say hello, drop us a message, topic or feedback if you have a moment. Definitely love getting those interactions. So until then, run long, run strong and keep choosing to enjoy.

Speaker 3: 55:14

Thanks for running with us at the Choose2Endure podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. We had a blast. If you did, make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. Keep racking up the miles and the stories and we'll catch you at the next trailhead. Until then, remember to run long, run strong.