Cross Training Q&A w/Coach Vicki Allen: Boosting Race Performance for Back of the Pack Ultra Runners

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey, so do you find yourself confused by cross training? Are you not sure how much to do, whether you should be doing it at all, what types of cross training would be best for back of the pack runners, and how to accommodate it into your training schedule without actually sabotaging the rest of your week? Well, not to worry, you're in luck. We're going to get into that and get you some answers here. In this particular episode You're listening to Choose to Enjoy the go to podcast for back of the pack ultra runners. Join us as we explore uplifting stories, interviews, gear and training tips, all geared towards the unsung heroes at the tail end of the ultra universe. My name is Richard Gleeve. I've been ultra running since 2017. I've finished numerous ultra distances internationally, from 50 K's all the way up through 200 miles. I'm a qualified US car ultra running coach and I'm, unashamedly, a founder member of the back of the pack, just like you Joining us today to share her wisdom, we also have Vicki Allen, so Vicki is an obsessive ultra runner herself. She is a full time coach with team run run, a full time orange theory training coach, as well as somehow finding time to be a camp gladiator trainer, and she's going to help us get to the bottom of this topic. So if you're ready to get some excellent information about cross training and discover how you can use it to improve your ultra running and be stronger for longer when you're out racing or training, then stick around. Right around, here we go. Vicki, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. So before we jump in and start sort of pulling back the curtain on some of these cross training questions, I think maybe we should start with a refresher of what exactly is cross training. Is, for instance, pickleball cross training we were just talking about prior to coming on here.

Speaker 2: 2:14

Yeah, yeah. So we definitely determined pickleball was pretty much. Cross training is really anything that you're going to do that can go through and kind of support, balance, muscle growth, stamina, anything that you really need to go through and be able to be using to be able to actually produce runs or hikes or whatever your favorite sport is. It's kind of just the extra little work that you have to go through and do. It's like if you went to cook a meal and the meal just can't be finished right away. You got to add in all the extra cooking and details you know, just to make it special and then add in your flavoring and that's what makes your cross training.

Speaker 1: 2:52

Fantastic. So, since we here cover a lot of the kind of back of the pack, the slower runners, as you might know, as far as our group goes, what would be some of the main benefits? Why would we want to do cross training? Because we have a lot going on, right, we're all running around in our daily lives. We have families and goodness knows what else going on work wise. So what is it about cross training? We hear a lot about cross training. Right, we should be doing more. I know I should be doing more and I don't do nearly enough cross training. But what are the benefits? What's the value of cross training, especially for, you know, somebody like me who's pretty slow yeah well, there's, you know, a lot of benefits that can come into it.

Speaker 2: 3:33

It really doesn't take very much time to do it. Say that, for instance, like we both run, so a lot of the time you end up having tight muscle groups or you just are like, hey, I can't get my legs to loosen up or untighten and I'm getting injured all the time. All those little small muscle groups. We have to strengthen those. And even, especially like as runners, it's a one-legged sport. You're always like on one or the other. So if we don't do something like yoga to get into stretching and we're on like squat depth to be able to, you know, get down and up to get our poles or get our here or you know, just make it to where we can go through with stands, the, the walks or the hikes or the climbs. That little bit of cross training, even just 15 minutes of it, can make a huge change. I definitely think that runners are some of the most injured people in the world just because we don't put in that little bit of extra time but demand, you know, so much of our bodies at the same time.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Yeah, I feel, and especially for me. I mean, I have a lot of hip and knee issues and I feel like cross training, I probably should be doing more to correct imbalances that I know I have through running, find some exercises to do that. I really feel like I should be doing more strength work, you know, to offset, and I'm super slow, right, so the slower I am, the longer potentially I'm out on the course and therefore I feel like, probably, cross training, I should be doing at least more strength based cross training too, because I'm just going to be out there longer, right, I'm going to put more fatigue in those muscles, like you were saying.

Speaker 2: 5:12

Yeah, yeah, and it's a lot of, you know, being able to go through and put the time in on those. That way you can spend time to have that extra strength to go through and do stuff. You know a lot of. It's, for instance, like I'm one of those that when I run, I pull my shoulders up high so I have an imbalance of my lower part of my back and recently caused a rib to pop out. Oh my God, okay, well, I normally don't think about my shoulders causing issues whenever I'm running, but I'm like, oh, okay, well, that's a new thing that apparently is there for us back the packers that are putting in that extra time and effort inside of it. It's like, hey, you got to protect yourself so I can go to work and pick up things and add in weights to be able to lift. We're not going to ask people to get out there and be doing CrossFit all the time and not looking to sit there and sling huge dumbbells and stuff around, but something that's a little bit of extra dumbbell work or stretching or just tiny bits will make a difference.

Speaker 1: 6:13

First of all, that sounds really painful to have your rib pop out. I don't know that I've ever had that in all this time running, so that's, that's kind of wild. How did you handle that? Like what? How do you work that? Did it just pop back in?

Speaker 2: 6:26

Yeah, so I had to start to go into the scene of PT. So that's another thing is, if we don't do a cross training, we're gonna spend a fortune on Arosties or Massages or anything in there. So what? Luckily we were able to do a little bit of like need a work with being able to kind of Almost do like that acupuncture and try me to de stimulate that muscle, for me so tight, and luckily, over time it's kind of de swelled itself and popped itself back in. I learned a new thing called a rib rock, that you can Pretty much rock your rib back into place. But now we're sitting there and saying, okay, well, this is the muscle that you weren't working, that you need to work to make it not ever happen again.

Speaker 1: 7:07

Well, I see I've learned. Yeah, I've learned a new phrase here rib rock. I've never, I've never heard of rib rock, but that's awesome I.

Speaker 2: 7:18

Didn't even know ropes could pop out.

Speaker 1: 7:20

No, that's really wild and I have to say, before we jump on to, before we keep going to the dry needling I recently had dry needling for the first time and I would recommend that to anyone. That was. That was really Interesting and different, but it works. Oh yeah, and I think I had the Electronic stimulation with it. I don't know if they do it with or without, but I had it with and goodness me that made a difference and I had no idea that thing even existed.

Speaker 2: 7:45

So yeah, it's a quick, easy solve that. I'm. A lot of chiropractors go through and use that practice and I was pretty much like one of those that were always laughing about being like hey, I have a race in two days. I need you to fix me so I can go. Yeah, and that's pretty much exactly what happens, like hey, I'll fix you a kick your tea, it's not gonna happen again, but let's fix it and get out.

Speaker 1: 8:05

Brilliant. Yeah, I came across this recently too and I had really works. I had no idea that it was even a thing dry needling but yeah, shout out to dr Brackney out there for dry needle in my glute. It really didn't work, yeah, so back to cross training. Real quick. So you're with orange theory and camp gladiator, right? So yeah, so what? What? What kind of training is that for those that may or may not be familiar? And how does, how does, let's say, orange theory or a camp gladiator or any other cross-chain for that matter, and what are the? What do you do with that? And is it or can it be tailored towards runners, especially, you know, back of the pack, runners like us?

Speaker 2: 8:43

Yeah, yeah. So a lot of the time, like I was mentioning, sometimes we really don't want to have to live super heavy because we're not really looking to Get a whole doubt to be able to run you know we won't be able to work around our muscles but to be able to kind of tone down, lose but not necessarily extra weight off of us, but that extra body fat that doesn't need to be there. That's not converting everything over properly for the right nutrition for us, but it's safe. For instance, like a camp gladiator. They're usually outdoor locations or small indoor locations and with there you get small, small dumbbells, whatever dumbbell weight you want, and then you've got your mat, your brain, your own stuff that you like. There we just add in different workouts. You may go through and see things like deadlifts or Things where we're going through and working with just one-sided work on the legs and working on mobility, working on the strength, working on Continued movements to where it simulates kind of those long distances we do. That's like, hey, continue to hit that body hard, let's see how long it can withstand it. We then in turn end up building in cardio and builds endurance. So that's the best part about the camp gladiators. You kind of get to take it the pace you want to. Orange theory has a little bit of different benefits. There we have like TRX straps so we can work more on not having to have weights but still be able to get some strong movements from you doing your own resistance. But yet you can go through and lift really heavy at the same time with those dumbbells. And the treadmills are amazing and you get a lot of. They have flexed treads so you're not having to hit that hard treadmill like normally we would at some of the gyms. I'm saying you get that extra support and it's a Making it to where we can watch you, we can help correct form, make it to where you're not going to end up being that injured person, that's don't get to out of those muscles. And we always work on meta cycles so you know, whenever you're working something you go through a phase where you're working on strength, then you're gonna do it's, then you're working on both combined.

Speaker 1: 10:53

And is that in the same session or is this sort of session on session? You're, you know, focusing on a particular aspect?

Speaker 2: 10:59

Yeah, there's session on session, Especially like, even with them orange theory we separated a whole lot. So you may have a day where it's like, hey, you're choosing the strength class for 50 minutes, but we're focusing on just upper body, or this is a class where we're doing a certain challenge, like, say that you're Wanting to be a good roller, you're like hey, I want to see how far I can actually row in this this time frame. There's challenges that are like here's 20 minutes how far can you get on the road different things to where they're? They're built in there to go through and help with endurance and cardio. And One thing that I like about them as well that orange theory really has is you can go through and personalize your own.

Speaker 1: 12:06

Is almost that. Yeah, you can actually tailor it to more like what we're looking for, which would be to stay in zone two for that base training. Because everything I see when I walk by is like these people are just going for it and dying on these rowing machines. And I've tried rowing and I'm sure it's really useful, but I mean my back just won't let me do a lot of rowing and I think my technique is probably terrible. So do you guys teach the technique for proper technique before you get on?

Speaker 2: 13:06

Yeah, so that's actually what I learned is I'm the person who hates the rival. Avoid it with a plague, I don't want to be on it, I'll go into the assault bike or anything else. So I've had to work on that and had to learn the technique myself, learn that proper movement and be able to correctly do it and turn up. And, like hey turns out, I didn't know how to use my shoulders properly on things. So yeah it helped fill in extra little gaps on stuff, and I know some of the original people that I followed. Whenever I first got into endurance running it was kind of like, hey, you got to do this extra little work in between and I'm like, oh no, we don't have time for that.

Speaker 1: 13:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:44

And I'm like, oh you know, it took like five to 10 minutes. I'm a horrible stretcher, Yet every single day now I'm having to show stretches, do stretches, and it's like 20 minutes a day. Maybe I'm stretching out of half to and it's made it so much different in races, like I'm way less tired than I ever used to be, just from that tiny.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Is that just stretching as part of your orange Deerey workout or any other workout, or are you just at home in the morning doing a stretch routine?

Speaker 2: 14:14

No, it's just part of what I'm doing Just during the workouts, so it's making that that little bit extra. Say, my dad, I don't know, he had better much extra time, so it's like I think, I feel like you can.

Speaker 1: 14:25

you can stretch or do some base workout If you can figure out which ones you need. You can do that kind of thing while you're watching the TV or while you're listening to music or whatever you're doing. You know you can do that while all this stuff is going on around you at the house, potentially without having to go. I kind of feel like the world is conspiring against me. It's telling me I've got to do this stuff. So in the spot where my coffee shop is, that orange theory is next to it, just down the road, the two things just opened up one stretch labs, which is a big stretch business, new business and then right next to that is is a brand new craft beer pub. So I'm like, look it, just it's, I've got Everything covered here. All I need to do is come here and get this, get this cross train. I can work on my arm, does that count?

Speaker 2: 15:14

Lifting beer is that cross training?

Speaker 1: 15:17

calories and hydration through beer. I'm a big fan. I'm doing it every time and I have done it. In fact. I did it in the habanero. In the habanero, in bandera, I managed to find a beer. I made it my my goal on the second lap to find someone with a beer and I eventually did two stations from the finish. One of the volunteers had a beer. Somebody always, always, has it never fail somebody always has a beer and ultra races. It's usually an I p? A for some reason, I don't know why, but I mean not that I mind, but yeah, it's.

Speaker 2: 15:48

It's rare to find something right, some little things like that say that you know you're at the office and you have to stand up and you're like, hey, just when I'm standing and typing or talking, I can pick like one leg up behind the desk and just talk to you. And it's like, hey, that's Already extra work and you're just sneaking in there or bending over to get the laundry or certain changing. When you're getting up from the couch to a squat, instead of Just getting up and making your body tired from not having good form, just getting up and down something. So, yeah, get little things in there and then, hey, if I did this and I get my beer.

Speaker 1: 16:25

Yeah, and I think that that sort of leads in into the direction of where I was gonna go, because, you know, one of my biggest Excuses is probably the correct term, if I'm being brutally honest, for not doing enough cross training. Is that back to kind of what we were talking about before, like how can you balance your cross training needs with Both regular running routines that you've got without sort of destroying your running in the process, like your ability to actually go out tomorrow and do a run that you need to do and fit it in with all the other stuff that you've got going on with life? I think, for me at least, that's the biggest challenge that I find with cross training. Not so much I don't enjoy doing it, I mean it's nice and it's good to have Sort of something different to focus on physically rather than just running the whole time. You know, work, work, different parts of the body, mentally as well, just breaks up that routine. But I think for me especially, it's the challenge of okay, how do you, how do I fit that in? I'm already stretched to the limit trying to do family and work and Podcasts and actual running training. So where, where can I fit? Or how can I fit cross training in, and is it okay to maybe so about Like an easy run on on on a day here there?

Speaker 2: 17:44

Yeah, yeah, you should definitely have. A good rule of thumb is trying to get to the gym at least like three times a week, rather. That's like you know, focusing on stretching for 30 minutes or so, and then having two days where you're focusing on strength, like I'm, for instance, mondays, wednesdays, fridays. I focus on work, cardio, and so those days are days to where I'm like, hey, I'm gonna back to back my short runs up with having something where it's like, hey, I'm gonna work with Not like super heavy dumbbells, but kind of in between, and so that way I'm still working on getting that extra work in, but I'm not gonna go through and overstress the body so it can't do something extra. Where is, like on Tuesdays or Thursdays, I may do like a yoga or do like A heavy lifting, more of like Olympic lifting bars or focusing on just lifting heavy on that day. I also put it on Thursday because I know that my long run is on saturday, so I put it back to back on friday and saturday. Then I may be to sore on saturday to have a good run. But I can also weigh that out and say, hey, you know when it's time to back down those miles, that two weeks before taper time before the race, then two weeks I stop having lifted, only do body work movements, keeping those movements there just so I get that ability and lugs and arms, or Making sure I'm keeping my core engaged and I'm not gonna sit there and lift heavy so I won't be super sore before a race, two weeks before.

Speaker 1: 19:23

Yeah, I think that's really interesting to you talk about upper body, because when you, when you talk cross training, most people Rightly I think focus on okay, I can get some additional cardio here without sort of battering my legs that I'm doing already or they focus on strength, lower body strength, because obviously I mean that's natural. But I do think I do think there's a lack of focus on upper body strength for ultra running. I mean, running is a full body Activity and you're carrying a pack and if you've got a special in some races where you can be required to carry three, maybe four liters of water, that's a heavy pack with all the rest of your gear in it that you're potentially looking up a hill. I think it's really important to focus on upper body strength as well as lower body strength. And to your point like, get some shoulder workouts and make sure you can carry that polls as well. I mean, if you're gonna use polls For any length of time, your arms are gonna be. Hopefully, if you're using them correctly, you know your arms are gonna be pulling. You gonna get some pretty sore shoulders if you haven't done enough training On your upper body. So, yeah, I think upper body is, for me is probably as important right yeah, a lot of time.

Speaker 2: 20:40

you know we're starting to see a lot of people go through the best in, like those weighted best, so you're going out and doing those miles anyway oh yeah if you're not like a short mile day, just be like, hey, I'm gonna put the best on and do more of a hike today and see if I can power walk as fast as I would have run with that whole best. A lot of that is really good idea, especially if, like you're coming in to eat their newly wearing a pack because you're getting into those longer distances or, like you were mentioning, you require to carry a certain amount of weight. Doing coconut, that was the first time I had gone through and experienced having four leaders on me and that was definitely a focus we focused on was working with those polls and carrying that extra weight, because it made a big difference.

Speaker 1: 21:26

Yeah, I think people wouldn't say neglect, but it isn't front of mind when you think about cross training, like to make sure you work upper body as well as Lower body and just general fitness. So yeah, so talking about exercises, potentially you know, south none Sioux Falls, south now is yellow man Are there some exercises that are more useful for us as back-of-the-pack ultra runners that we might be able to do either at home or in the gym, especially if we're not super familiar with the gym. In particular, a lot of people are somewhat intimidated, if you're not a regular at the gym, to just kind of walk in there and start picking up free weights among all the grunters and people dropping the barbells.

Speaker 2: 22:09

Yeah, well, those free weights are probably your best friends. Everything inside of a gym is free-faceted. The machines don't even worry about them. To be honest, there's going to be more time for you to figure out than you need to be wasting. But things that are one-legged work because, again, we're on one leg a whole lot. So working with the things like maybe getting on all fours and taking they have these little sliding discs that you can go through and then put your feet on and sitting there and driving one knee in at a time to your hands, that one's a good one because you're working on mountain climbers technically is what they are. So you're sitting there working with one leg at a time or working with a single leg deadlift. So you're holding one dumbbell or two dumbbells and you lift one leg back behind you and bring them down to your leg. That's focusing on stability. So when we're having to climb and hit a certain spot, we're not going to trip or fall over, Even finding the playground that has those little wood chips or the rubber ones a lot of us are ankles into bothering us. So even just walking back and forth on that, that's technically not even using any weights, but it'll be a huge help. Squats are a major one because that's focusing on upper your middle of your core, working on the mobility for those legs again and a lot of times, since we are constantly still on those one legs at a time, you can sit there and use those to help correct that body and keep it upright. Most all of us, no matter how new we are, we all know, hey, if I try to sit my booty down to the ground, I'm going to end up with a squat. So it's one thing that almost everybody knows how to do at some point. It's just adding that extra weight and resistance to those. So those are three simple ones to work on those squats too.

Speaker 1: 24:10

They really help when you have to go take your shoes off at the end of the race You've got to. Oh man, it's the most painful thing when you have to squat down. So now we've got some exercises. I know I've got some exercises that I need to be doing and I did like you were suggesting, throwing some of these in while you're watching TV or maybe at lunch at work. If you can do something in your office, or even your cube, if you can just do some squats in there or do some one leg stuff.

Speaker 2: 24:39

Even simple things, like when you're sitting there doing dishes. You can hold the dish up a little higher and sit there and scrub it and then, when you're going to put it inside the dishwasher, just tuck your core in and turn it more into like a little squat down there to get to it.

Speaker 1: 24:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:56

So I'm already doing this stuff.

Speaker 1: 24:58

Sure, and the one I have done inconsistently, which I should be doing more consistent. I suppose I read online one time that if you stand on one leg while you're brushing your teeth and hold your other leg up and then just balance, it really starts to work your glute and ankle strength. So just finding things to do in every day that can assist, which mean you don't have to spend the time going to a different place to do it, because you may or may not have time in your schedule, depending on who you are to be able to do those things.

Speaker 2: 25:32

Sitting there just picking up the big water jugs. You know that's, those are farmer's carries. You're already carrying those huge jugs. That's a huge thing.

Speaker 1: 25:42

I tell you I must cross train at least once a week. Then, when I get the groceries out the car, because I'm like the guy with every bag, I'm not making two trips, I'm making one trip. I'm not going back outside, I'm doing one trip and that's it. So I've got every bag I can handle. So I'm I'm classifying that as a farmer's carry. At least at least once a week. Absolutely so, vicki, are there? Are there some common mistakes or things that we should be avoiding when we're thinking about cross training and doing some of these exercises? What should we not be doing?

Speaker 2: 26:18

Yeah, a lot of the time is, you know, like you want to go into the things. Sometimes we'll see other people and they'll be lifting really heavy and you're like, oh okay, well, I guess that they're lifting that heavy, so I need to lift that heavy. Don't just jump into it. That's the easiest way to go through and get yourself injured because, one, you might be newer to it and, two, it's going to require some different muscles sometimes to do that same exercise, but lifted heavier, because you may have certain muscles that say, hey, I can handle this load, and then when you go heavier, then it's a whole another load, a whole another muscle group. So ease yourself into those weights, stretch and warm up before you actually start lifting heavier. You'll hear people do like a warm up and then you'll see a drill and the drill people are like oh well, it's like the same exercise as the workout. I don't need to do that. No, do it because that's the extra warm up to your body before you're hitting it hard. That also for us back the packers that are spending extra time, getting that extra hit in that work, is what's going to make us a little bit more tired, so we can get that fatigued feeling for how we always feel when we get into 30 miles or so or long.

Speaker 1: 27:32

Yeah, I think that could also help with technique, I suppose, whatever I'm thinking, technique for the particular exercise you're doing. I mean, it's all right doing these exercises, but the idea is that you get the technique right, otherwise they may end up being either useless or, even worse, causing you some sort of injury from trying to do these exercises.

Speaker 2: 27:57

Yeah, usually on the workout you're trying to move a little faster in that section too, so you want to be able to have that warm up and that practice all those movements before.

Speaker 1: 28:07

You might do it too fast, you don't really notice.

Speaker 2: 28:09

You hurt something.

Speaker 1: 28:10

Yeah, absolutely yeah. Just get the movement right and then do the exercise and use it as a warm up essentially. I think that's great advice. Now something for me in particular and others out there, as I approach my 50th year. Obviously we're aging over time. The strategy for cross training does it change somewhat? Does the content of what we're doing as cross training should that evolve with us as we age? Do we need to do more strength or more cardio as I age? What should I be doing as I hit my 50th year and beyond?

Speaker 2: 28:51

Yeah, a lot of the time, and this is what you would normally think is going to go the opposite way. You think the older I'm going to get, the lighter I need to lift. I don't need to do as much because the body is going to break down. But it's the exact opposite. Say, for instance, like I'm not quite to my 50s but I have early onset osteoporosis, and I was like oh, they're going to tell me. I can't run anymore, I can't do anything extra. They were like no girl we want you to lift and we want you to lift heavy. We want those extra bones to get that strength inside of them that your body's not just naturally producing anymore. So the older we get, the more important it is to do the actual cross training and be able to add that extra strength in there. Now you may have some things that are like hey, I can't quite do that same movement the same way I used to. It's like OK well over the years, things happen. You may have a car accident or a surgery that leaves, you know, maybe your shoulders I can't tell you how many people I run into that. They're like my shoulder and I'm like, yeah, yeah, but we can work through that. You can get that same muscle hit but not have to worry about that weighting that's working. So my biggest advice to you on things like those is don't eliminate everything. Just ask that trainer, or whoever you're working with, be able to say hey, what is a way that I can still hit that muscle but not have to do it that same way? And that way you can still get that benefit of it, because just like you were mentioning, since we're the bag of baggers, it doesn't mean that we get to be the people without the ice or the food or the drink. That just means that we just need we were spending that extra time to do things carefully and in the correct way and taking our bodies to that full extent that they can get to.

Speaker 1: 30:43

Absolutely. I choose to think that we are the real endurance athletes out there, as opposed to the guy that ran band area in like eight hours. I mean, he was home and in bed before I had even booted off my second loop. So who's the real endurance athlete there, you know, the guy who took 18 hours or the guy that was done in eight? Absolutely, yeah, awesome. So we talked a lot of physical here, but I wanted to see too, if you know if there was any correlation really between cross training and kind of what we were just saying like mental toughness and resilience really for ultra runners at the back of the pack. Can it help build some of that mental toughness?

Speaker 2: 31:26

Yeah, a lot of the time we're sitting there constantly being like, hey, we can't, we can't, I'm not going to make it, I'm not going to make it, I'm just going to stop where.

Speaker 1: 31:34

I'm at.

Speaker 2: 31:35

Well, whenever you're sitting there and you're doing the workout, you get those chances daily, weekly to be like hey, I got a little further down on that squat, or hey, I lifted a little heavier than I did that last time where I got more reps in, or I did a movement I couldn't do before. You get all those little wins to convince your mind of, hey, I can do hard things, I can do things I didn't think that I could do, and that translates directly into that running you also have. We stride a lot off of people. Right, if we have somebody who's good and hanging around with us and giving us good conversation, we'll go and go and go because we are paying attention to that and not our suffering. So, when you're in the gym you're like everybody's suffering along with me, and if you're doing that group session like warm-stere, you're all doing them at the same time. So you know it's sucking at the whole time for everybody.

Speaker 1: 32:30

I love that. Yeah, I love it that way. It's an opportunity. Every time you're doing a workout and you get to the point where you think, hmm, I'm not sure if I can do any more of these. Whatever this is that you're doing, it's an opportunity to endure. Right Back to the podcast and to the running, it's an opportunity to say you know what, I'm going to do one extra one this go, or I'm going to go for an extra set this go around. It's a chance to practice the mental resilience to do more and you get to do it like over and over, in small doses, and that way, potentially, when you get on the course, maybe that carries over. I think that's really interesting, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:16

Yeah, I think you know mental is a big thing. I was watching a thing on Noah Lyles not too long ago and he has, you know, a mental coach just in itself and I'm always like, what are they always talking about? It's pretty much exactly that. It's like, hey, all you have to do is just get your mind right. So it's like whatever you're doing is going to help get that mind right, to make it through everything.

Speaker 1: 33:42

So what you're saying, vicki, is, if I get a mental coach, I'm going to be able to run like Noah Lyles. I can bust out my hundred and two hundreds and just go for it. Is that because that would be awesome?

Speaker 2: 33:54

You know, I thought that maybe that's the one coach you're not missing, but that I'm like I just don't know. I don't know if somebody who's strong enough to be able to be like, hey, girl, you go, do those summit two hundreds and make it well, I could, like you're not convinced to be on that one.

Speaker 1: 34:10

No, I don't think so. No, that's pretty fun, yeah, but a mental coach, that could be very interesting too. I'm sure they're out there. I just I don't know that. I've looked into that, but that might be something interesting to an interesting avenue to go down as well at some point. Pretty good. So we've done all this training, We've been to Orange Theory, We've been over to Camp Gladiator and we've got up at some. I didn't even know there was like a four or five o'clock in the morning. I can't believe folks go out at that early, especially at this time of year. I mean, do you participation wise? Do you get a lot of participation?

Speaker 2: 34:45

Cause I imagine really, just like you know, if we were going through and going out to a race and something happens like, for instance, I got the flu it couldn't go out to Bandera and chase you around. Then it was like, oh man, you know I missed out. Well, I think that they feel the same way if you know, they don't get their workouts, or you know the gym's closed or something's going on and they're like, hey, you took a part of my day away. I need to need to have my patterns.

Speaker 1: 35:10

Yeah, I must admit there were not many people chasing me around Bandera at the speed I was going. There was not much chasing going on, but you know we didn't get through, but that's cool. So how do we know whether all those things are actually working or not? How do I, how do I measure whether the effort that I'm putting in on the cross training is actually having value, that it, that it's actually paying off come come race day? Is it all sort of anecdotal or are the? You know what are your thoughts on how? How do I tell if it's working or not?

Speaker 2: 35:43

Yeah, and you'll be able to see like, for instance, your speed may go through an increase because you've gotten it to where your muscle groups are now stronger so they can take on more, and you're like hey, it's not as hard to make this pace as it used to go through and be, and it's not necessarily because I put it in a ton of miles, it's because I've straightened those muscle groups to say you take over a little bit of it and want the heart rest a little bit and that helps out a little hot. It doesn't take that long. It's six weeks without actual strength training or cross training. Technically is all it takes to diminish every bit that you put into it. So if you go through and are just working out for six weeks, you'll automatically already see results back into your your movements, balance work is a huge thing on there. So say, for instance, like I'm coming around the turn I might go through and feel like, hey, I'm a lot more confident going down those rocks than I used to be because I've gotten in, say, box jumps or walk some extra stairs in the day and I'm, like you know what, I feel more confident climbing on those rocks or my ankles feel better because I've worked on those and moving that range around. So a lot of the time cross training is simply there just to make you feel better and I think that that was one of my biggest goals was saying I want to raise and I want to raise these distances, but I just don't want to have to suffer to badly. So getting to the distances but not suffering is a huge thing, and that's what cross training is really provided specifically to even my training.

Speaker 1: 37:17

Yeah, absolutely Fantastic. Well, I think there's a ton of great information there and I really appreciate you coming on to to share. One of the things we like to do on each episode is encourage guests to choose a song, and that song gets added to the free Spotify choose to enjoy playlist. If you haven't already gone out there to check it out, do so. There's some belt is out there and the list is getting awesome, so I use that one while I'm out running all while I'm going to be at the gym doing some of this cross training we're talking about here. Vicki, did you have a song that you wanted to add to that list and, if so, what is it resonate with you? Why did you pick it?

Speaker 2: 37:59

yeah, I love the time and you know, when I come across the strong song and it's just like hey, I feel the same way. Is that song like yeah, that's that's how we feel about that. And I'm like, hey, that's a, that's a perfect one. I know you sit back, hey, that's a perfect ultra song, like it is a perfect ultra song. So it's kind of like, hey, fully understand that situation that I was in and I understand you understand. That makes me feel better.

Speaker 1: 38:28

Yeah, this song I think, if I, if I reading right, it's born for this by the score is that the. The score is I've never heard of it, but I did listen to it prior to coming on and it's an absolute stonker. I mean it could have been Specifically written for ultra running. So definitely, if you are not familiar with the song as I was not definitely go out and check that song out, cuz it's an absolute. It's an absolute Bands storm of the song. Very cool is that when you knew before vicki, is that a regular on your playlist? Yeah, and you know, just thinking about asking for songs to add to the playlist. It's been a really interesting journey because I just thought it would be a nice kind of fun way to close out chatting with people and Put some songs out there. And it's turned into this really sort of this opportunity for people to connect with Music and the music has really meant something to them. Every person who's chosen a song has had a really cool reason for why that song meant something to them and some people can listen to it over and over and it becomes the, the theme and the anthem to a particular race or to a particular block of training or this is how I envision myself finishing a race is running to this song through the finish line. I think it's so emotional and so emotive Picking a song and I didn't anticipate that at all, I just thought we were picking a song. But you know, like you say, a song, if you repeat the song and you really get into it can really start to have some meaning for you and I think that's really cool yes, I'll be. You know, in the middle of the race and the wall and you're like I gotta find that song yeah you're like I'm gonna be person again gotta find that song. it's amazing the impact music and have on mentality. I think that's essentially what I'm learning through through asking and hearing people's you know why behind, why do you? Why do you pick? What does this song mean for you? And it really does have meaning. There aren't many songs that I've Receive through through this first season of the podcast that people have just gets like a throw away song. I mean, every one of them has had some sorts of meaning to people and I think that's it's really cool to explore what that meaning is and how people view themselves through music and what the music does for them, either to assist or Motivate while you're out. So I don't know, it is fun but but I think it's really cool at the same time and it's fascinating to listen to the why behind songs like that and what they can do for you.

Speaker 2: 41:13

Yeah, I think songs to the can't give you a little sneak peek into a soul. So say that you're facing somebody there and you're like, hey, what do you listen to me to tell you some of their songs? You're like I didn't listen to that. Now I know more about you.

Speaker 1: 41:28

Yes, I gotta do an episode. I'm gonna write this down. I think I have to do an episode of music, music in in ultra running and impact and much like you're saying, leave your outpacing or running and Ways to get mentally the best out of yourself through music while you're alter running. So, good call, I'm gonna write that down. Some points in the future I'll have an episode on music. That'll be kinda cool. Well, as we close out this episode, vicki, super thanks again for your time and and your insights. You know many runners do successfully integrate cross training into their overall training plans. I think along as you Think logically about what you're doing and the amount of the of cross training you're doing, the type of training you're doing and where and how it can fit in your overall schedule. We have learned today that it can be an incredibly useful tool to enable you to push longer and go farther out there with less stress, with with less hurt. So it can also help if you're injured or you're up. You know, looking to freshen up training to get out there. Don't be afraid to give it a go. You can find Loads of structured cross training at places like orange theory and can gladiator. I'm sure you could go out to YouTube and look up some home runner exercises, or maybe connect directly with a coach, much like vicki here, to get the best sort of personalized workouts to support your specific Ultra goals as well. In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe to the show so you something to listen to while you're out doing your workouts. Get notified each time a new episode comes out. Of course, follow, share and review. Doing any of those things really does help with the algorithms, which in turn, helps others find the show. You can find us on instagram and facebook and over choose to enjoy dot com and now also over on youtube for a video version. So be sure to head over to Any of those spots and check us out, say hello, drop a message, shout out a topic or some feedback if you have a moment. Until then, run long, run strong and keep choosing to enjoy.

Speaker 3: 43:45

Thanks for running with us at the choose to do a podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. We had a blast. If you did, make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. Keep racking up the miles and the stories and we'll catch you at the next trailhead. Until then, remember to run long, run strong.